Happiness: Community Means Longevity, Pt 3 of 5

Anything But Mid is hosted by Amy Edwards and Whitney Stropp. Neither host is a doctor and nothing here is medical advice. Lightly cleaned for readability.

Amy: I'm Amy.

Whitney: And I'm Whitney, and this is midlife, but you're anything but mid. I can't not say something.

Amy: You have to have the last word.

Whitney: I do. I think I do. That is. I just want to affirm what we said.

Amy: Yeah, you are. That's right. That's right. You go. Anything but mid.

Whitney: Anyway.

Amy: Well, have you got a mid moment?

Whitney: I have an anything but mid moment.

Amy: Oh, do tell.

Whitney: Because I went to No Doubt at the Sphere. One night only. In and out. We got in at like 11:00 a.m. on Saturday, and we were back in Austin at 7:00 p.m. the next night. So it was literally.

Amy: That's right. I honestly think that's perfect in Vegas.

Whitney: Yeah, it was great. We we got in.

Amy: Two nights is is like max, really. One night is fantastic. You still feel good about Vegas when you only stay one night.

Whitney: Yeah, I I did not lose any money, which was also awesome. I played craps. For the first time and was on a roll.

Amy: Oh, that's fun. Oh, my god.

Whitney: Which, apparently, doesn't happen very often.

Amy: So did you win?

Whitney: Yeah, I won. We all took out money, the same amount of money, and I'm the only one that left with more money than I came with. Just about $300. So I lost some, and then won some more, and then lost some, and then won some. But I left with about $300 more.

Amy: Where did you stay?

Whitney: Than I had before. The Venetian, because that's where the Sphere is. And it was super fun. It was you know, I know you have your doubts about Gwen Stefani.

Amy: No, not doubts, I just.

Whitney: She's annoying you right now.

Amy: No, she's not annoying me. I'm just a little over her.

Whitney: Because you're annoyed. You're annoyed you're tired of seeing her.

Amy: I just felt like she was so uplifting to women.

Whitney: She is still.

Amy: And now not as much.

Whitney: You're saying that because of the Catholic thing?

Amy: A little bit.

Whitney: You're hilarious.

Amy: A little bit. Well, and her hair. I don't know.

Whitney: Her hair, it's looks the same.

Amy: No, now she looks like Carrie Underwood. Nothing wrong with Carrie Underwood.

Whitney: Oh, here. Okay.

Amy: She looks like the country music.

Whitney: She was country she was like she was playing the role for her country album, and she had her hair flowy, and sang about purple irises, but that's okay. She can, you know.

Amy: That's not the Gwen I want. And then and then I realized that my favorite Gwen song was actually written by Linda Perry. I did not and completely produced by Linda, and I fucking love Linda. And I was like, "Oh, my god, I'm actually a massive Linda fan," which I knew, but now, I thought Gwen wrote that song. And I just saw. Which song? Was it "Hella Good"?

Whitney: No, it's "What You Waiting For?"

Amy: Yeah, "What You Waiting For?" It's so funny. I don't It's weird. We must be on the same wavelength. I retweeted that. Or re- re-.

Whitney: Okay, so maybe that's how I saw. I'm like, why am I thinking about this? Yeah, I saw.

Amy: You might've seen it from us. It was an interview with Linda Perry?

Whitney: Yes, and then I saw another one where she was talking about the the songs that she wrote for Pink.

Amy: Oh, my god. See?

Whitney: She's incredible.

Amy: She's the powerhouse behind all this. Christina Aguilera, too.

Whitney: Yeah. Yeah, I know. But also, Gwen has written her own songs as well. It's okay to collaborate with people. But all of her songs from The Tragic Kingdom, she wrote herself. It was all about her breakup with Tony Kanal.

Amy: Yes. Okay, we like that.

Whitney: Anyway, she killed it. She looked like the Gwen that you love. Super punk.

Amy: We do like that. She did. Okay, good.

Whitney: The way she was running around that stage and dancing was so fun. And then I'm looking in the audience, and it's all these young people.

Amy: Really?

Whitney: That know their songs and are were into it. Yeah.

Amy: Are you serious?

Whitney: Yes.

Amy: Yeah. Wow.

Whitney: It was very cool. And I loved it, and it wasn't something that I would I've I've wanted to go to the Sphere, but I wouldn't have necessarily chosen No Doubt cuz I wasn't like a massive fan of theirs, but some friends invited us to go, so we went, and I'm so glad I did. She's very I I still believe she's very empowering for women.

Amy: Okay, good.

Whitney: And I loved the whole set, I loved her her costumes. She's so cool. Like I was just like so cool.

Amy: Yeah, I love her. I I've loved her so much for so many years. I guess it's just waned a bit, but that's okay. It's all right.

Whitney: That's okay. That's okay. Some Sometimes you're going to love her, sometimes you're going to hate her. Sometimes people are going to love you, sometimes they're not.

Amy: Damn right.

Whitney: We don't we don't jump on that roller coaster. We stay feet planted, and we don't care like whatever. And that's what she's doing. Anyway, it was super fun, and I felt really cool, and I had my, you know, cool Gwen Stefani outfit on as did everyone else,

Amy: That's right. I'm sure.

Whitney: which kind of was like, "Oh, am I like at a Comic-Con?"

Amy: Cosplaying. Cosplaying Gwen, yeah. What did you think of the Sphere?

Whitney: You know? Yeah. It was fun. Very cool. That was a mid moment that I had, though, because I tried to stand up to dance, and I was like, "Oh, no, I can't do it. I got to sit down."

Amy: There it's like.

Whitney: Super steep. A lot of visual. But some of those young young ones were up dancing, and I was like, "Well, I can do that," and then I was like, "Nope, no, I cannot."

Amy: Yeah. You feel like, "I'm going to fall."

Whitney: Yeah, I felt dizzy. It's like you're on And, of course, they're from Anaheim, so they played off the whole Disneyland thing, and Magic Kingdom, Tragic Kingdom, which I hadn't really ever put together.

Amy: Wow. I've never thought of that.

Whitney: I never thought of it either until I went to their show, and then I'm like, "Oh." The visuals were oh, um really cool, animated, a lot of animated. I did feel like I was on a ride. Like, the seats will vibrate and like things fell from the sky, and it was almost overwhelming.

Amy: Oh. Wow. Cool.

Whitney: Yeah, yeah. It is. And then you're also trying to zoom in on the stage, cuz there's a performance happening. So it was a lot, but super fun, and I felt like I just was energized.

Amy: Cool.

Whitney: And she's older than me, which makes me feel even better, cuz I'm like, "Look at what she's doing."

Amy: That's right.

Whitney: So I'm fine.

Amy: I love that.

Whitney: Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to do all those things too.

Amy: That's right. Well, how old is she? 55?

Whitney: She's 56, 57, something like that. Yeah. A little bit older. And looked great, great shape. You know, her I don't think her skin has ever seen the sun.

Amy: 56? Mhm. Damn. Yeah.

Whitney: It's so light, which is also good, because then you don't age. Anyway, and she pulls her hair super tight, which I think is like an instant facelift.

Amy: Oh. It is! It is. Like look at all the women that wear that half-up ponytail, like.

Whitney: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so it was fun. What about you? Any moments?

Amy: No, but I did learn, well yes, probably, but I did learn about cortisol face recently. Have you ever heard of that?

Whitney: No. Do I have it?

Amy: No, I don't think so, but I think I have in the past, and I just stumbled upon something that was call talk talking about cortisol face, and how your stress level if it's sustained, it can reflect in your face making it like a, they call it a moon face, like rounder, and almost like the like if you were taking Really?

Whitney: Steroids. So, yeah, my my friend had cancer and she was taking steroids and she had the moon face.

Amy: steroids. Yeah.

Whitney: Really? Because your body's producing so much cortisol, it just creates that.

Amy: Mhm. I know. I guess so. It makes inflammation and your face gets inflamed. I'm not sure all the details on it, but I hadn't heard of it before and I was like, that is so interesting like that it really shows on your face and I can look back at pictures of myself and I can see it. And I know, too, what I was doing at those times that I wasn't taking care of myself. Like perhaps, I knew I was eating more chips than I should, which is inflammation,

Whitney: Chips City. I love me some chips.

Amy: but I can tell in my face that it's like a result of me being stressed, not taking proper care of myself. So, I don't know that it's the chips, or it's the stress, but I can see it, and it's interesting.

Whitney: Yeah. True. No, I agree. You can definitely It's so funny after my husband died the next summer. So, he died in October. The kids go to camp in the summertime, like right right in June at some point. Anyway, for a month. And so, you know, we've been dealing with the grief for a while before they go to camp. They go to camp and they're gone for a month. I go to pick up my kids, and they're in middle school. And my son looks at me and I'm like, "What?" And he goes,

Amy: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Whitney: "You just look old." And I was like, "Ow." First of all, thanks, you know, and I was like, "Well, you know, I've been dealing with a lot, you know," but I thought it was interesting that it he left for a little bit and then when he saw me again, he was like, "Wow, you've really aged." I'm like, "Well, dead husband will do that to you, kid."

Amy: And a dead husband and three kids.

Whitney: Yeah, true, true.

Amy: Okay. Like, good god.

Whitney: Yeah, and mother living with me, but yeah. So, anyway, I just thought that was so funny and ouch at the same time, but yeah. We know we know that that that takes a toll on your face and your skin and Yeah, stress.

Amy: Oh, yeah. Yeah, it really, really does. The stress does. Did your face get wider? Do you look back on those pictures and see anything in your face?

Whitney: No, I mean, I I grind my teeth and I think that I started grinding after he died. I I never had to deal with anything. I didn't wear a night guard or anything like that.

Amy: Wow. You didn't wear a night guard? And you wear one now?

Whitney: Yes. And you know, it does build this muscle here and so, it starts to create I kind of think of it as like a Jennifer Aniston jawline, you know, it's square.

Amy: Me too. Yes. Oh.

Whitney: And so, that's definitely different.

Amy: I've had that. I mean. I've grinded for my whole life pretty much.

Whitney: Yeah, no, I didn't start until after he died. I know. Well, and I keep thinking maybe I'll go see I mean, I've seen an energy healer a lot since he died, but I was thinking maybe I should go cuz, obviously, there's energy in there. That's why we're grinding. There's our bodies are trying to to take care of some sort of energy that we've got going on. So, I was like, maybe I need to go and specifically deal with this jaw thing. Where's that energy, and how can I move it through and get it out?

Amy: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Wow. I don't know.

Whitney: I don't know.

Amy: I'm always like rubbing mine like.

Whitney: I know, me, too.

Amy: While we're talking about it, and I'm like, I mean, it's strong.

Whitney: I know, same. And I need to I think I told you this, my dentist said, you know, "Are you getting Botox there?" And I said, "I have in the past, but it didn't really make that big of a difference." And she was like, "You need to go to an oral surgeon. They can put in more Botox than what just going to your aesthetician can do." And I was like, "Okay." But, I didn't

Amy: Will that affect your talking at all, or?

Whitney: I don't know. You would think that it would impact everything. Like, it would You're freezing a muscle. I was like, "Am I going to just start sleeping with my ah?"

Amy: Wow. Yeah. You've liked.

Whitney: You do? Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I haven't gone to see him.

Amy: You might. I don't know. Okay.

Whitney: I may, I'd probably do the energy healer before I go to the oral surgeon. Anyway.

Amy: Well, I'm interested. Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney: Okay, so, well, us

Amy: So, we're jumping in today.

Whitney: We're jumping in. It's time for another episode in our limited series, The Max Life Protocol, real science behind a real life, cuz we do talk a lot about the physical side of anything but mid, but there is a deeper situation going on that we need to be handling. And we're using the framework from Arthur Brooks. He's a Harvard professor and author whose entire message has been about how to live a life of meaning and purpose, and the pursuit of happiness, which we all want. We're built to want those things. So, I'm excited. Just a recap, if you didn't listen to part one or two, they're they're in our podcast library, so go check them out. In part one, we talked about the curves: the first curve and the second curve. When we're younger, we're on that first curve trying to be the soldier. We've got we're fast, we're excited, we're like a sponge for information. And now, it's time to jump into the second curve where we use our experience, we're wise, we're no longer the soldier, we want to be the general, and it's a promotion. Don't think that you're being demoted when you go to the second curve. We're actually being promoted.

Amy: I like it.

Whitney: So, and then in part two, we mapped out the happiness portfolio. If you want happiness in your life, you have to diversify. You cannot put all your eggs in one basket.

Amy: I like it. Mhm.

Whitney: And we talked about the four different pillars of that portfolio. Today, we're going to hone in on one of the pillars in particular, the Friends Pillar, because, you may have heard this before, longevity and your community are very tied together. And you know they talk about those blue zones, and they thought it was what they were eating and the atmosphere, but they also have this huge community. They they're they have multi-generational families living together, they commune together, like even, you know, the Norwegians, or the Swedes, or whatever when we were talking about the saunas, they're doing all of those things together. And that is more important. Some some research says it's more important than diet and health, like working out and stuff.

Amy: Saunas, that's right. Yeah.

Whitney: So, we want to dive in and see how we can get a deeper meaningful relationship with our people. And so, we're talking about quality control here.

Amy: Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney: Cuz you can fake the friendship pillar with, you know, your work friends, or your acquaintances, but that's not what we're doing here. We're trying to get into quality relationships. Do you feel like you have those?

Amy: I do. I do, but I think I have a tendency to get a little bit too isolated sometimes. And however, though, I I also am really excited about my kids getting older and having that with my kids.

Whitney: Yeah. Yes.

Amy: So, I like that, but I know they're going to go off on their own lives, you know. So, I think looking ahead, it's going to be interesting to see how that kind of shakes out. I'm very inspired by my husband who talks about when he did live in Congo with the Pygmy people and lived a year

Whitney: Mhm, yeah.

Amy: there in their community, which is was pretty small, but it's really interesting to hear him talk about how that was the happiest time of his life. I mean, he was connected to nature, he was connected to his purpose,

Whitney: He had He was filling all of his pillars. He was He was feeling all of his

Amy: Cuz he had community, he had work, he had faith, he had friends. Yeah, so that's very inspiring and I'm excited to learn more about that, you know, and just from the people that we serve, too.

Whitney: Yeah, it's harder.

Amy: So, anyway, I can do better, definitely. I do have certain friends that are very good about reaching out to me, one in particular, and so I'm trying to get better. The other day I was driving and listening to something and I was like, "Nope, I'm calling someone." And I just like want to like build that as a habit to just keep reaching out to people, cuz I think that that's like something that sometimes will get away from.

Whitney: Yeah. Yes. Definitely, and I'm going to talk about that. You've you've hit on something that's extremely important. I did want to share this Harvard study, I think this is very interesting.

Amy: Okay. Love me a Harvard study.

Whitney: I know you do, and it's it's always a Harvard study when you're talking with Arthur Brooks cuz he's a Harvard professor, too.

Amy: I know. Oh. Oh, okay.

Whitney: But

Amy: Sounds legit, yeah.

Whitney: Yeah, I know, right? This study, of course, tracked men, hundreds of men from youth to old age, and when researchers look back at the data to see who became healthy, vigorous 80-year-olds versus, you know, poor

Amy: Vigorous.

Whitney: vigorous, versus the ones who had dementia, and, you know, weren't as vigorous, your relationship satisfaction at age 50 is a better predictor of your physical health at age 80 than your cholesterol levels.

Amy: Holy shit.

Whitney: Isn't that crazy? The data shows that satisfying, secure marriages and deep friendships are associated with living an average of 5 to 12 years longer for women and 17 7 to 17 years longer for men

Amy: That's crazy. Mhm.

Whitney: compared to those who are isolated. You also get cognitive protection, like I said a second ago, dementia. Individuals with strong social networks and regular social activity showed a longer onset and significantly slower rate of cognitive decline and dementia in old age compared to those who lacked close confidants. That makes sense. You see it a lot when What, why are you laughing?

Amy: I'm laughing cuz then your friends are like, "What the fuck are you talking about?" You got to exercise your brain more.

Whitney: Right. Well, it makes so much sense to me when you see like especially our parents, if if one parent dies, the other one seems to go down so much quicker. People who live alone when they don't have anyone to talk with, that's why they'll get a pet, because at least they have some sort of socialization there.

Amy: Yeah. Oh, yeah. When I am isolated, I talk to my dog, and you know, I make her talk, so we have full conversation.

Whitney: Yeah. Oh, you make her talk? In what way?

Amy: She talks She talks.

Whitney: Oh, you talk for her?

Amy: She talks kind of like this. This is her voice. She's like, "What are you doing, Mom? I want to eat right now." That's her voice.

Whitney: That's hilarious.

Amy: She has a deep voice with a lisp.

Whitney: A little lisp? Okay.

Amy: Mhm, she does. So we make her talk all the time. So she and I have full conversations, and that's probably not that healthy.

Whitney: No, I think look,

Amy: So.

Whitney: it's survival. I think that's a way That's a way for you to keep surviving, because think about it, if you live alone, and you never

Amy: You're right. You're right.

Whitney: use your voice, you know? All day long you're by yourself, so you don't speak, and think about this too, the, you know, I'm kind of going off, but

Amy: No, yeah. Right. That's okay.

Whitney: hugging. Like, I think about the people who never get a hug. Like, they live alone. You're not hugging people at the grocery store. I mean, sometimes I am, but I'll hug my plumber sometimes or like awkward awkward things.

Amy: He will.

Whitney: My landscaper hugs me, and I don't actually really like it that much, but I imagine that maybe he's lonely. I just saw him yesterday, and I try to keep my distance, but he comes in, and yesterday he came in hard, and he just went for a full-frontal hug, and and he likes to kiss me on the cheek, but anyway, I imagine I'm like that I'm not unsafe. He's look this tiny, little Mexican man, and maybe he's lonely, and he doesn't have anyone, and physical touch is something that we all need.

Amy: Oh. Oh. Oh. We do.

Whitney: And, you know, you can hug yourself, but it's just not the same. I can't remember the the the the timing of it, but I feel like there's something like a 30-second hug

Amy: Mhm. Mhm.

Whitney: like steps up your endorphins and really has some good health benefits. I'll have to check that.

Amy: It does. No. There's a formula to it, and I've posted about it before, but it is it's something like, you need this many hugs a day just for maintenance, and then like for like growth.

Whitney: Yeah. Did we hug today? We didn't hug today.

Amy: We didn't hug today.

Whitney: We have to start hugging.

Amy: I like hugging. I love hugging.

Whitney: But I think it's important, and I think about my mom, you know, she's living by herself, but she Well, and I'm going to talk about my mom during this whole episode, because I think she's a great example.

Amy: Yeah. Okay.

Whitney: I forgot her name. Her name is Anne. In the family, she's called Mumsy,

Amy: Anne.

Whitney: cuz once you have grandkids, it's like you no longer have a name. You're just Mumsy or Grandma or whatever. But she's a great example of how she has created a community through her family. She doesn't really have friends, she doesn't really want friends, but she is important to multi-generations in our family.

Amy: Mhm. She doesn't want friends. Is that put pressure on you?

Whitney: No, it used to. I used to feel bad, and she does have a friend group, but they're in Houston, and she's fine with only seeing them every other month or something. She'll go to Houston.

Amy: Mm. Oh. That's still pretty good. That's still pretty good.

Whitney: But she doesn't need friends here in Austin, because she is so busy with all of us. And she and she's made herself indispensable, honestly. She watches my dog when I go out of town, she watches kids when need be, she was homeschooling one of her grandsons. My Her one grandson just had another baby. He's got three, little kids, six and under. She's over there every day, she's doing their laundry, like

Amy: Mhm. Mhm. Wow.

Whitney: She's busy.

Amy: Busy.

Whitney: And and everyone feels like they need her. And I really feel like everybody feels like she's their best friend.

Amy: Really? Aw.

Whitney: Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, back to the episode. Yes, I do, and and while I was doing the research on this, I was thinking about it. I'm like,

Amy: Do you?

Whitney: you know, my close friends, who's my best friend? It's my mom, and she's 79. So when when she leaves this earth and transitions to whatever's next, I'm going to lose my mom and my best friend.

Amy: Aw. Shit.

Whitney: I know. I heard Nicole Kidman say this, we're getting a little off, but I heard Nicole Kidman say after her mom died, she's like, "It's the one person that knows everything." Like, and not everyone has the relationship that I have with my own mother. I know that. But my mom knows everything about me. She knows every storyline, every history, even the things that I don't share with anyone else, she knows.

Amy: I know. Mhm.

Whitney: And so when that is gone, it is going to be such a hard day for me,

Amy: Yeah. Oh.

Whitney: year, months. Did you feel that when your mom passed away?

Amy: Yeah, and we but we didn't get to have all that adult adult relationship, which is too bad. She died when I was 32, 1, 31, 32. And, yeah, it's just uh it's makes me sad, you know. But, anyway, yeah, you're lucky to have it.

Whitney: Yeah, so lucky. And I It just makes me appreciate it all the more when I, you know, do research like this or, you know. I know my relationship with my mom is very special. Anyway, and her cognitive abilities are incredible because she's got those four pillars.

Amy: Maybe she'll live to 100.

Whitney: Yeah, she doesn't want to. She doesn't want to.

Amy: Oh, it sounds exhausting. When Justin's like, "I want you I want to live to 100, so you have to be 115." I'm like, "I am going to be so fucking tired."

Whitney: Yeah, she's like. That sounds exhausting. Yeah. Yeah, I don't I don't

Amy: But, okay.

Whitney: Yeah, but for you, honey. I thought this was interesting. There's something called the 15-cigarette rule. Chronic loneliness and social isolation increase the risk of premature death as much as smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

Amy: Holy shit.

Whitney: Isn't that crazy?

Amy: Wow.

Whitney: That's how much we have to have deep, meaningful connections with people.

Amy: Yeah. Happy.

Whitney: So you you want to invest the time in real friendships. And how do you know what a real friendship is? A lot of people think utility friends are real friendships. They're the deal friends. They're the transactional friends.

Amy: What does that mean?

Whitney: That you do business together. You work in the same office. You need something from one another. But if you had a crisis, you're not going to call that person.

Amy: Like what? Oh. Mhm. Mhm.

Whitney: They might not even know anything about your real personal life. It's very on surface level. Right? And you're friends because you work together. Yes. Or your kids go to the same school.

Amy: You see them all the time. Or whatever. Mhm.

Whitney: But if that went away, so would the friendship.

Amy: Gotcha.

Whitney: So they're useful, but they have an expiration date basically.

Amy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Whitney: Those are not the kind of friends that we're talking about. Pleasure friends is another kind of friendship.

Amy: No. Oh.

Whitney: They're based on admiration, a shared hobby, but it's still superficial. Your golf crew, your fantasy football league, your drinking buddies, they're fun,

Amy: I don't have any of those.

Whitney: but the Right. What would be yours? Your crystal group?

Amy: I literally don't have a single one of those. Well, what about us? I mean, we're different because Well, here's We're mixing a couple together, because we have a work relationship. you know. We are. We met through work.

Whitney: We met through work, but we have some underlying foundational similarities.

Amy: Yes, we do.

Whitney: They're things that are important to both of us, so we feed off of that, and we talk to each other. So our relationship is already more meaningful and deep because of the things that we talk about at work.

Amy: Mhm. Yeah. Right?

Whitney: So we got a We're just crossing it all off. And we're pleasure friends.

Amy: Right, right. Well, if this went away, we would still be friends. Like we were friends before we did this, so. You know, there's that.

Whitney: Yes, exactly.

Amy: Even though we met from work, and worked together.

Whitney: Yes, yeah. And I will say, and this is something that everybody needs I think as you get older you recognize this more. Your real friends, your we call it the virtue friends, these are not transformational connections. They're people who love you for hue for you.

Amy: You mean transactional.

Whitney: Yeah, what? No, no, transformational. This is the se- This is the last group.

Amy: What? Oh.

Whitney: What'd I say?

Amy: What are you talking about?

Whitney: Virtue friends, your real friends.

Amy: These are transformational. They are transformational. I see it right there.

Whitney: Yeah, what'd I say?

Amy: "You are not." You said, "They're not transformational."

Whitney: Oh. Mid moments.

Amy: And I was like, "Wait, what?" And that's why I was like, "They're not transactional,

Whitney: I didn't even I wasn't even listening to myself.

Amy: but they are transformational."

Whitney: Let's Let's take a moment. We're now talking about your real friends, the friends that are going to help you live longer, the friends that matter.

Amy: Yes. Okay.

Whitney: Okay? The virtue friends. These are transformational connections.

Amy: That's my husband. I mean like he's my best friend.

Whitney: Yeah. Well, and I'm going to talk about the spouse in a second. Yeah, these are the people that love you for you, they don't want anything from you, they're happy for your achievements, there's no jealousy, right? They share your core values, which is what I think we do, you know? They know your flaws, and they're completely useless to your career. Like they don't You don't need anything from them, they don't need anything from you. But they're absolute-

Amy: Yeah. Yeah. We do. Right. I'm not expecting him to advance my career. Right.

Whitney: Right, but they're absolutely essential to your soul. Right?

Amy: Yes.

Whitney: Okay. I specifically asked about spouses, because I was like, do spouses count as this real friend? Because it's also your family, and the short answer is yes, they absolutely do, but they cannot be the only friend.

Amy: Mhm. Right, right.

Whitney: And I remember reading once, you ask a woman, "Who's your best friend?" and she's going to name one of her friends. You ask the man, and it's his wife.

Amy: Mhm. Really?

Whitney: Most of the time, yeah.

Amy: That's not that surprising, I guess.

Whitney: Yeah. Men don't have I don't know, but I I think Justin is different. He's got a lot of feminine energy, like in the sense of connecting.

Amy: Yes. Mhm. He has connecting energy.

Whitney: Yeah. In fact, He's very masculine, don't get me wrong.

Amy: it's it's so off the charts that uh when we first got together I had to explain to him that he had this connecting Ability. ability, because literally people don't connect that well with others, and then they'd connect with him, and they thought it was unique, and it was to them, but it's not to him. And I was like, "You have to be careful, because they think you're best friends now. And then when you don't answer their text messages, cuz you have a zillion,

Whitney: Everyone thinks they're his best friend. Yeah.

Amy: they're confused." And I was like, "You You kind of have to be careful, because" and not and that's not saying don't connect with him,

Whitney: No, yeah, I know what you're saying.

Amy: but he uh yeah, I and I he he didn't quite grasp that, and he was like, "Oh, my gosh," you know. Cuz like we went to an event, and people like literally were like, "Oh, my god, I've never connected with someone like that ever." You know, and I'm like

Whitney: Oh, really? You're my best friend.

Amy: Right, and there was a girl there that was like, "Oh, we have a connection." And I was I was like a and she was like, "We're meant to be together," or whatever. And I was like, "Oh, yeah, I know that bitch."

Whitney: You're like, uh. What? She said that, and you're right there.

Amy: Yes. No, I had been there that day, and then she had a moment alone with Justin, and she told him that. And I was like, "That's because she thinks you guys are connected,

Whitney: You're so

Amy: whereas to you, it's just another day."

Whitney: Yeah, exactly. He can go deep fast. He can go deep fast, yeah.

Amy: Yes. Yeah.

Whitney: Yeah, and most people don't do that. Right. Well, and men, what I was going to say and Justin doesn't do this, but like when Hunter would go out with a friend, or even with my boyfriend, Ryan, when they go out with their friends, like Hunter would come home, and I'd be like, "Oh, so tell me, how's Todd's wife? Like what's going on with the kids?" And he's like, "Oh, we didn't talk about that."

Amy: Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney: Really?

Amy: Oh, well, you were with him for 4 hours. What did you talk about?

Whitney: What did you talk about? Oh, I don't know. I mean, I go, "Well, what's going on at work? Does Is he Is he going to move? Is he going to do this?" He's like, "Oh, we didn't really." They're talking sports, and super superficial things, whereas when women get together, we go deep. We have we we try to make that connection.

Amy: Yeah. I know, I have a friend the other day Justin was like, and we went to an event, we went to lunch together, and he was like He just immediately thinks that she doesn't go deep, because he just doesn't know her that way, and I'm like, "She and I have been friends for over 20 years. I'm not going to invest in that friendship if we don't go deep. Like of course we do."

Whitney: Right. Right. Right. He was probably confused, because he usually can easily get in with people like and get deep, and she's like, "Yeah, I'm going to put"

Amy: I bet you're right, yeah. She maybe, yeah. Or he maybe he just hasn't tried, and he's written her off in a way or something like that. Like I know he likes her, but he just thought she was surface. And I was like, "I'm not going to spend my time just surface." Isn't that interesting? He assumed there was surface, whereas I think if I saw you with a friend, I would assume that it was deeper, you know?

Whitney: Surface. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I will say, I do enjoy a good surface friend, too. Like I get I I mean, I have like a couple I have a couple of friends that's like, I want to go out and just have a fucking awesome, fun time

Amy: I do, too. Yeah.

Whitney: and just let it rip.

Amy: Oh, bullshit. You don't always have to be deep.

Whitney: And there There are a couple of friends where we're not going deep, but we will go get drinks,

Amy: You know?

Whitney: you know?

Amy: Well, that's a drinking buddy. And, you know, that's changed for me since I quit drinking. And that part is interesting, but like my main friend/drinking buddy, she quit drinking.

Whitney: That is a drinking buddy. Yeah. Oh, so now y'all can Yeah.

Amy: Isn't that wild?

Whitney: But you don't feel odd? Like I know I have some friends in recovery and they don't feel they're they're fine with going out with us and we're drinking and they're not.

Amy: I'm fine with it to a degree. I'm fine with it to a degree.

Whitney: Till people get stupid.

Amy: Well, people start repeating themselves, and and it just gets like not fun. And so then you just have to know when to bow out.

Whitney: Yeah. Know when to fold them.

Amy: So, I don't go to happy hour and stay out till 2:00 anymore.

Whitney: Know when to walk away. Right.

Amy: Which I used to do.

Whitney: Well, isn't it funny that and again we're going off for a second, but isn't it funny that drinking actually will make you stay out longer when really it's a depressant and you would should go home? Like I would think I would want to go home and get in bed.

Amy: It's a different type of way that alcohol affects you. I would say listen to Andrew Huberman's podcast on alcohol because there's there's two different

Whitney: Oh. I'm not going to cuz it's going to tell me to stop.

Amy: There's No, well it will, yes, but there's two different ways that it can affect people. One is it puts you to sleep. It is that depressant, but there's another way, and it it It makes you fun. it makes you energized, and I when I listened to it, I was like, that's not only me, it's every one of my friends. I was like, holy shit.

Whitney: Yeah. Well, sure, cuz this the one that goes home goes home. Like the one that gets tired goes home. I'm energized.

Amy: Yeah. Right. It was It was me and everybody, and we're the ones that stay out till 3:00.

Whitney: But I also think I'm energized because I'm connecting, and there's music, and you're having fun, and you're dancing.

Amy: Yeah. Yes, fun. More fun. Fun. More fun, more fun.

Whitney: Super fun, yeah. Exactly. Anyway, so, you know, as much as I want to have those deep relationships, I do also appreciate the ones where I can just not think and it's not heavy, and

Amy: Mhm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Whitney: you just go and do. But those are not the friends that are going to keep you alive longer.

Amy: Hm.

Whitney: Those aren't the ones that are going to do it.

Amy: I kind of have both with my husband actually. So, that's really nice, cuz we can just like veg out, watch TV, laugh, be stupid, you know.

Whitney: Yeah. Yeah.

Amy: Yeah, I like that.

Whitney: Well, it says research shows that marrying your best friend gives you a massive, lifelong happiness boost.

Amy: I love that.

Whitney: Your spouse is your ultimate virtue friend.

Amy: Can I sidebar?

Whitney: Yeah.

Amy: Okay, so I was talking to this friend, and there was a channel on, or whatever, account on Facebook that I used to follow. It was like empowered, embodied woman, or whatever it was. I can find it, but anyway, it was like what really helped me with dating when I needed it, and so I have a friend who also does it, and so she's really working on herself to find the right partner. And so she

Whitney: Oh. I think you told me about this a long time ago. There's like a Facebook group or something. Yeah.

Amy: Yes, yes, yes. It was really good, and her name's like Giodorna Tokicandindelli, or something like that. Anyway. And so, anyway, I'm sure if you search that you can find it. But anyway, I think that, unfortunately, I think that this account gets people and then just keeps them in the coaching loop

Whitney: Yeah, because they're interested.

Amy: because my friend signed up, but then now she was so far along. I told her I was like, you don't need to coach with them anymore, you've got this. You just need to embody those practices and and make sure of that, because then they told her that cuz she was like, "I want to marry my best friend," and I was like, "Fuck yeah, you do." And and they told her that that was her inner child talking and that was not what she wanted, and that was coming from a wound, and I was like, "Fucking What the fuck are they talking about?" Now they're just keeping you in a coaching loop, and get the fuck out, because that I just thought, of course she I was like so offended for her. I was like, "Of course you want to marry your best friend. Of course you want something that you're best friends with."

Whitney: Right. You have to. You have to, because the passion side of it, the the the the lustful side of it, is going to go to sleep.

Amy: Well, I've never had a relationship more than 10 years, I guess.

Whitney: Right, but eventually, what's left.

Amy: My first marriage was we were together total 11 maybe and maybe maybe my second marriage to 10-ish. So, anyway.

Whitney: Yeah. You go on you're on like the the shallower levels, but if that dissipates, and then whatever's left is what is going to be in your long-term marriage. And if there's nothing there,

Amy: Yeah. Mhm.

Whitney: then it's going to fall apart. That's why spouses are marriages tend to break off once the kids are gone, because they've put all their focus on the kids, and didn't cultivate their relationship, the kids leave, and they're looking at strangers. They don't know each other. Anyway. Call us for marital advice

Amy: Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney: at 1-800-GIODORNA-BIDITY-BAP-TA. Anyway. No, I think your spouse is definitely the anchor for your inner circle, but again, you have to have more than just one. One is great, but your spouse has you know, it needs to you need to branch out a little bit. But yeah, your spouse is great. The reality check.

Amy: Mhm. Mhm. Okay, go. Do it.

Whitney: Because this is the thing that I hear especially from my widow podcast people. It's hard to make adult friends. Like

Amy: It is. It is challenging.

Whitney: And I'm sure it happens with divorce, too. Like you you lose your group when you are no longer with your spouse, or you move to a new place. I know when

Amy: Mhm. Well, somebody gets custody of those friends.

Whitney: Yeah, is it always you?

Amy: Like Um, I have like one friend, and he managed to balance with both of us from my first marriage.

Whitney: Oh, that's good.

Amy: It's actually my best friend's husband. And he he was just like, "I'm going to be friends with both of them." But it's rare. Really rare.

Whitney: That's very hard, because in my experience with my divorced friends, there's always one person that I felt like was not doing right right by the person. And so, I tried to maintain a little bit of balance for a while with a couple of my friends, and then I just had to drop the guy. Bye.

Amy: I mean, when it comes down to it, if he had to choose, it would be me, because I'm best friends with his wife and like he's going to choose her.

Whitney: Right, he couldn't. Yeah, exactly. But when you're younger, and I'm seeing this right now, so my my youngest sister married a an army guy, so they they move every three years, right? Two to three years. And they have these, little girls, and my sister is great at meeting people, and connecting, and I think when you're in the military, that's already a group, because Were you in the You were a military.

Amy: Right. Right, right.

Amy: I was not, but I grew up in a military town, so I grew up with that mindset.

Whitney: Right, people aren't are are used to transitioning and whatever, so I think they're a little bit more open. But I'm watching her, little girls, and you know, in elementary school, you maybe by fourth, fifth grade, you might be a little bit wary of making friends, but in those early years, they're just going in. My, little niece, she's 6 years old, she walks into her first grade class on the very first day, sits down next to this boy, and goes, "Hi, I'm Presley. What's your name?" And he was like, "Hey, I'm so and so." And she goes, "Okay, well, we're friends now." And she had him over like later in the week to her house. You know, it's like instantaneous. It's not Yeah. Mhm. I love it. So cute.

Whitney: It's not hard for them, because you're not in your head about, well, they're not going to like me, what are we going to have to talk about?

Amy: Mhm. And you're just not like entrenched in these clicky friend groups. So I I grew up like without those clicky friend groups, really. Everybody was more of a mixed bag. There were people like me that lived there the whole time, but everybody was always in and out with the military.

Whitney: Yeah. That's hard. Yeah.

Amy: So it was kind of nice, you got a new crop of guys, you would make new friends. I mean like one of my most long time friends, she moved to Killeen when we were juniors.

Whitney: Oh, yeah. That's so hard in high school to make that move.

Amy: And like I know. I know, and then she and I like She's a fucking rock star. But we're still in touch. We're still good friends. We've still We walked together at graduation, and I was like We just did it. Like that that was just how things were done where I grew up.

Whitney: We're besties. Yeah. Right. Well, and I think, you know, you have shared struggles, you have the same schedules, it's like forced proximity. So like my main friend group, I mean, and I have a friend group here in Austin which is awesome, and I'm going to talk about that in a second, but but my core group, when I think about my good friends that I could call, you know, for anything,

Amy: Yeah. Mhm.

Whitney: they're the women that I raised my children with. And I we were carpooling, we were fighting with the teachers, we were crying about, you know, Common Core math, you know. We were going out as a group, we had functions, school functions, and so our lives were exactly the same, and we lived in the same neighborhood. And so you just bond easily, right? When I moved here, my kids were in middle school, nobody's making play dates for their middle schoolers, they're on their own, you know? Moms aren't calling me to go, "Hey, we really want to get the boys together today, what are y'all doing?" So, and then my husband died, so I was It was a struggle for me to find my people, because everyone's already got their groups, you know? And I mean, I've heard from a lot of people, and I even say this kind of myself, like, "I have enough friends, I don't need to add any more to the group, because I'm already too busy."

Amy: Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Cuz I've got such a full calendar.

Whitney: Yeah. But you know, I mean, so as we get older, they're already They've got their set core group, children aren't around to facilitate the friendship, and then you also have this this blanket of self-doubt and, you know, judgment on yourself and negative self-talk that makes it hard, too.

Amy: Mhm. Mhm.

Whitney: So, you know, how are you going to find your friends if you don't If you need a little bit more deeper relationships, one of the things that you said a second ago, you have to make time. If there are people in your life that you would like to have a deeper friendship with, you have to make the time and put forth the effort. It's not a random text. If you're thinking about somebody, pick up the phone, and that's what you were saying you're doing when you're in the car, which is so great. I'm terrible at that.

Amy: Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Really?

Whitney: I don't I remember when texting first came out, and my mom and my sister were like, "We're going to start, you know, we're texting you," and I'm like, "I'm not going to look at this text, call me. Call me on the phone." And now I'm like, "Don't call me. Why are you calling me? Just text me."

Amy: Mhm. Right. Just text me, please.

Whitney: I don't know, I don't I'm not as quick to pick up the phone anymore, but you are?

Amy: Mhm. I know. No, I have to force myself. And so, I just try to do it every now and then, like you know.

Whitney: Well, I think it's a great tip when you're in the car, instead of putting on that Audible book, or listening to music, use that time to phone a friend.

Amy: Justin does it. Justin's so good about it, because he hates texting. So, he he does it that, and he like when he's in the car, he's on the phone with people, connecting and all that. I'm like, god, man.

Whitney: It actually feeds you. I'm sure there's some science behind it.

Amy: It's good. Yeah.

Whitney: You you get a a rush, a little bump, a little oxy uh not Oxytocin?

Amy: Dopamine hit or something?

Whitney: Yeah, I was about to say oxycontin.

Amy: A little oxy hit.

Whitney: Anyway, oxytocin? What is it? Okay, I was so close. So close. Yeah, one of the things that they suggest here is the phone log audit. Look at the last 10 people you texted or called outside of your immediate family.

Amy: Oxytocin. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's Sometimes when I'm like, "Who the hell are my friends?" I have to pull up my phone, look at my texts. I'm like, "Okay, yes, I have."

Whitney: Yeah. Yeah, so if And then you ask yourself, if my title, if my wealth, if my influence vanished tomorrow, how many of these people would still check on me?

Amy: Mhm.

Whitney: That's going to help you separate your deal friends from your real friends, and then you also need to ask yourself, who do I want as a real friend, and start putting in some effort. You pick one friend that you've drifted from, because you're too busy, or you don't like to answer the phone, and you schedule a coffee, or a drink, or a meal, or you, you know, you call them on the phone and you have a real conversation,

Amy: Mhm. Yeah. We do. Yeah.

Whitney: not a shallow one about the weather.

Amy: Yeah. And I mean like my friend Knack and I, we really have to we We were such best friends, and now we're both in meaningful relationships, and so we have to really make time for each other. And like the other day, I I had some an issue come up or something that was bothering me, and I was like, no one's going to know this like he will.

Whitney: Mhm. Mhm. Yeah.

Amy: So, I call him up, and I'm like, "Um hey, I have this issue." And he goes, "Oh, you were you called me, cuz you knew I'd like to get this dead horse out and beat it some more?" And I was like, "You" I said, "You qualified for a number of reasons. You go way back." And so, anyway, it was just like he was the one and he was there for it. He was like, "Let's do this."

Whitney: It was as if no time had passed.

Amy: Yeah, and then I said something on that conversation, I got real fired up about something and I said something about him being my designer friend, or whatever, and that bothered me so much, I called him back, and I was like, "I have to apologize. I can't believe I said that. You're not my designer friend, you're my friend.

Whitney: Aw.

Amy: I don't care what you do for a living, and it does not matter to me. Like, of course, I do think you're like the most talented creative genius on the planet, but I was like, but not like"

Whitney: Sure. Did he even catch it?

Amy: No. He goes, "Oh, no, I didn't even notice that, but thanks, I guess," you know, whatever. And I was like, "Oh, my god, like I would never want him to think that." Like he's like

Whitney: Yeah. Right.

Amy: my easy go-to and I was like, I don't know why I said that, and and then I felt really bad. It It like lingered, so I had to apologize and he didn't care. Of course he didn't care, cuz he's a real friend.

Whitney: Right. Right, exactly. Well, and yeah.

Amy: Like, he's like a real one, yeah. So, anyway, though, we do have to really make time like every now and then, every few months, I think he and I will just have lunch together and catch up and whatever, and I'm so glad that we make that time for each other, cuz we but we have to like make it.

Whitney: Yeah. Well, it's almost like when they tell you in your marriage to schedule a date night, or a sex night, like it doesn't mean that it's not valuable. It It actually is the opposite. You value it, so you make the time, even though it may seem weird, like why would I have to schedule sex if I, you know, if I really love him, then I'll want to have sex with him? That's not necessarily true. You have to put work in

Amy: Yeah, I Yes. Yes. Mhm. Yeah.

Whitney: to make things deeper, and trade efficiency for intimacy. So you stop sending the low-effort checking-in texts, or liking their social media posts. That's another way that I think people think they're connecting now, is just like through social media.

Amy: You do. Mhm. Oh, one of my friends was like She was like, oh, she'll She's talking about another friend. She was like, "Well, she'll call me and be like, 'You didn't like my post.'" And I'm like, "Girl, I would never even notice if you liked my post."

Whitney: That's and that's a deal friend, and deal off.

Amy: Isn't that wild? I was like, literally, I appreciate you liking my post, but I would not notice if you didn't. Like,

Whitney: That's another thing. Yeah. I think that that is something that I think about a lot as I'm getting older. Is this a friend that is stealing my joy, taking my energy, or building me up, and giving me energy? And I'm and that's one thing that I'm starting to look at to go, okay, is this a friend that I really need anymore? Because they are fucking exhausting.

Amy: why? Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Whitney: And then you just kind of say, "No, I don't."

Amy: Well, you just you just spend your time elsewhere. Right? Cuz it ultimately is an investment of time and energy,

Whitney: "Bye." Yeah. Yes.

Amy: and so are you having that heart-to-heart connection, that real connection, or is it like this sort of weird like wait you're waiting to see if I liked your You're You're keeping score, you know?

Whitney: Right, and that's transactional.

Amy: It is. It's

Whitney: "Why You didn't, you know, I'm calling you not to touch base with you, but to tell you that you didn't give me what I needed you to, you know, you need to help me in this area." Um yeah, deep relationships require the one thing high achievers hate giving up: unoptimized, unstructured time.

Amy: Mhm. Yeah.

Whitney: Can you say that again, please? Deep relationships require the one thing high achievers hate to give up: unoptimized, unstructured time. High achievers, typically, want to be very efficient, every moment is taken up, it's optimized, it's structured,

Amy: Oh, ho.

Whitney: and boom, boom, boom. With your friends, you want to trade that in. It's about intimacy, not efficiency. Does that Did did I say that?

Amy: That's really interesting, and especially because it's a paradox. So you are going to actually optimize your life more with unoptimized time

Whitney: Mhm. Mhm.

Amy: with people. Isn't that interesting?

Whitney: Yes, it is. Very interesting. Another thing that they suggest, this this this this idea suggests about creating meaningful relationships is showing your own vulnerability. You can't build a virtue friendship while you're wearing your armor. You have to put it down, share something, a struggle, a fear, a mistake you made recently. It It opens you up, and it makes the person you're with want to open up as well.

Amy: Yeah. Yeah. Mhm.

Whitney: That vulnerability is the currency that buys deep connection, and it can be so hard. I'm going to share this story that I'm still so embarrassed by. Um I'm getting red right now. It's yours. It's with you.

Amy: Mhm. All right. Me?

Whitney: Yes. I Remember when we went to the med spa, and they had like they had off- they had mentioned to me something like, "Oh, well, we can collaborate, and, you know, give you some free stuff and you can talk about us." And I like froze in the moment, and I I didn't feel like I could do that. Like I don't know, it's a whole thing, a whole mental thing for me. And so, I just kind of froze with it and didn't do anything, and then the next day, Amy comes to me and she's like, "Oh, you know, we should really try to collaborate with them and, you know, it would be a great, you know, win-win, whatever." And I froze, and then I pretended like I "Oh, yeah, wow, I hadn't thought of that, that's a good idea," when it had already happened the day before and I tanked on it, and it ate me up all day. And so, at the end of the day, I felt so terrible, I call Amy, I start crying.

Amy: Yeah, you cried.

Whitney: And then in my head, I'm like, "Why are you crying? Keep it together, you're such a dork. Like, this is making it worse." But you were so sweet and just like, "Whatever, it's totally fine."

Amy: I'm still confused why you felt so bad about it, cuz it was like

Whitney: Cuz I didn't say anything to you in the moment when you were talking about collaborating with them, I didn't say anything like, "Oh, yeah, well, they tried to do that yesterday, and I didn't know what to say. I I didn't say that to you in the moment. So, then I felt like, "Oh, why didn't I tell her the truth?" Like, anyway, I didn't want to be vulnerable with you and share that I tanked it the day before. And and then it was eating me up inside and so, then I called you, and I was very vulnerable.

Amy: Yes, you were.

Whitney: And cried, which I was like.

Amy: And I appreciated it, but at the same time, I was like,

Whitney: "You're a freak. Why are you overreacting?"

Amy: No, I wasn't like, "You're a freak." But I think, in this situation, like the one I just shared about Knack, where it was eating me up, like you're me, I'm Knack, you know, like it's like the other person's like, "Oh, gosh, everything's okay." You know? Like, and we all have moments.

Whitney: Yeah, but I the whole reason my situation even happened with you was because I didn't feel like I could be vulnerable in that moment. I didn't I I didn't share with you that I froze and didn't take them up on the collab.

Amy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Whitney: And then I felt terrible for keeping it from you. Anyway. But now, we're just have a deeper connection.

Amy: There was stuff to Yeah, there was stuff to unpack there, and

Whitney: Yes, always.

Amy: and you were also shown in that moment that it was okay to be vulnerable, it was okay to make a mistake. It was all okay. It wasn't going to em- impair our friendship, it wasn't going to be like a thing, you know what I mean?

Whitney: Well, and right. Right. And if it had, that's also an indication of where the friendship is. Like, and then you can have a conversation with that. Yeah.

Amy: I think so. I think so. I think that's actually a really good point, like

Whitney: If you'd been like, "You stupid bitch. Why didn't you"

Amy: Well.

Whitney: Then, I'd have been like, "Oh, maybe this isn't the friendship that I need right now."

Amy: That's right. That's right. I think that when someone shows up vulnerably, if you're able to just be like, "Oh, my gosh, it's okay." you know?

Whitney: Yeah.

Amy: Um I think that that's important. Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney: How would you say What? Are you

Amy: No, go ahead. Go ahead and ask, but then I'm going to share something. Go ahead.

Whitney: No, share.

Amy: Well, I was just thinking, too, about some past friendships where maybe I saw the friendship in a new light. That's interesting, too. Like, I've definitely had instances where I thought our friendship was one way, and then I was like, "Oh, it doesn't mean as much to you, so I'm stepping back."

Whitney: Mhm, mhm.

Amy: And so, gosh, I don't know how you discern that sometimes, because I'm thinking of a specific instance where I thought someone was close with me, I organized a trip because I was invited, I was ready to go, I messaged her, and I was like, "I'm coming. Here's when I arrive." And she was like, "Oh, my god, I'm out of town this weekend. I thought it was next weekend," and all that. And I was like, "What the fuck? You knew this meant a lot to me," you know. And and then I didn't have a place to stay, all this stuff, and I was like, "Shouldn't like offer me her place or anything?" And I was just like, "I don't mean much to you." And I don't know if there was a worthiness thing in there for me, but I basically stepped away from that friendship, and I was just like.

Whitney: And did she come after you or it was done?

Amy: I think she tried to apologize and stuff, but I just was sort of like, meh. And I've never I've just considered not really a friend.

Whitney: Well, that's that's when you're that's that whole thing of like when they show you who they are, believe them.

Amy: And so. Yeah.

Whitney: And and listen to your intuition. I think, more often than not, people go back and go, "Oh, well, she didn't mean it, and oh, well, I'm we're going to still be friends," and then they do it again and again and again.

Amy: Yes. You know what? Thank you. Thank you. You're exactly right. That's exactly right. It's not a person that I can count on. You're right. Very different than than what happened with us. And so, like with us, you've been consistently a person I can count on always, and like you come to me and you say, "I'm feeling vulnerable, and here's a thing I did, and I feel bad." And I'm like, "It's fine."

Whitney: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Well, and I valued the friendship enough to come and have that conversation, because I didn't want to have that conversation.

Amy: Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney: Like, there was a side of me that was like, "Just just pretend like it never happened." But it was bothering me, and I I didn't want it to come back. Like if you went to them and said,

Amy: Yeah. Mhm.

Whitney: "Hey, let's collab," and they're like, "Yeah, we talked to Whitney about this yesterday," and you'd be like, "What the fuck?" Anyway, I wanted to show you that I valued the friendship, and that I messed up. But honestly, I made it into this huge thing, it's not even a big of a deal.

Amy: It wasn't a big deal. It wasn't a big deal to me at all.

Whitney: But I had built it up, and built it up, and built it up all night. Anyway.

Amy: And they misread my Visia scan, so I'm not even going to.

Whitney: Oh, that's so true. We won't even get into that. There was something else that I was going to say.

Amy: You were going to ask me a question.

Whitney: Oh, okay, so let's going back to just people that are listening that are like, "Yeah, I want deeper friendships," and we've given you some tips on how to to deepen the relationships that you already have, but what about the people who want to establish some new friendships, what would you say they could do? My first go-to would be join something that you love, and then you'll already just be in a group with people that you have something in common with.

Amy: Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney: Do you have any suggestions for how to make friends?

Amy: I know. I know.

Whitney: It's so hard.

Amy: Well, here's how I do it if you must know.

Whitney: I can't wait.

Amy: I fucking invite them on my podcast, and then I'm like, "Now we're friends." And I've done that to people, and I'm like, "Can we be" I'll literally be like, "Can we be friends?" I can think of one in particular, Amanda Cuda. And I was like, "Ooh, I like her. I like what she's all about. I'm inviting her on my podcast." And then I was like, "Now, I've got her. Now we're friends." And so, I don't know, maybe I was transactional, and I shouldn't have been, but

Whitney: Yeah. "Now we're friends."

Amy: I I I don't know if I was, but I like I literally like Wanted to be her friend. wanted to be her friend, and then I straight up said that, and that and we are friends. We are friends.

Whitney: I think I think you can take a transactional friend, and deepen it into a virtue friend.

Amy: And convert it. Okay.

Whitney: Yeah, 100%, because people do do that. You have a work friend, and then you start hanging out with each other on the weekends, or you start dating, or whatever.

Amy: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney: So it is possible. If there's a person that you're like, "They're really cool. I'd like to spend time with them," then you have to open yourself up and go, "Hey, I'd really love to spend time with you. Let's go get a coffee."

Amy: Yes. You just say that, and like just like the six-year-old.

Whitney: Yeah. "Now we're friends."

Amy: "Now we're friends." Now we're friends. So I think there's a bigger principle that you can apply.

Whitney: Yeah. Go back to your kindergarten self.

Amy: Yes. Yes, and just say like, "I want to be friends with you." How many times do you say that to someone? And the reason Amanda leaps to mind is because I literally said that to her. I remember where we were standing, and I was seeing her off, and I was like, "I want to be friends with you now." And she was like, "Okay." And so, we were, and so it wasn't really about the podcast. It was really about And and I was thinking of a friend that always turns up, and always is good about calling, reaching out, and securing plans. She is particularly good, and I was like, "How did I meet her?" Guess what. A PR company pitched her to be on my podcast, and she was, and she's just been consistent like that. But, I do have another friend that hasn't been on my podcast, and she's been consistent about reaching out. Um like, my

Whitney: Yeah. Making them Making people feel valuable. "I I want you."

Amy: Maybe that's it.

Whitney: I I I've I value you, and I would like to spend real time with you.

Amy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Whitney: I think that that makes a big difference.

Amy: Mhm. Yeah.

Whitney: People want to be wanted and um and needed. So another thing you can do is bring someone in to help you solve a problem. "Hey, I know you've been divorced. I'm about, you know, to go through that. Can we have coffee?"

Amy: True. Yeah. Mhm.

Whitney: And then you're hitting all the buttons, because it's something not shallow, it's something personal, vulnerable, you're spending quality time face to face, boom.

Amy: Mhm. I think there's a bit of a wound with me, and it's like I feel like I have to offer something in order for them to want me, and so I have to kind of watch that, cuz I know I have that. I think I have this like wound of no one wants to come to my party. So I'm like, "Oh, I have to offer this in order to be friends," which that is not true,

Whitney: Mhm. Right.

Amy: and people will want to be my friend just to be my friend. But I like I think I have to offer something, so I think that there's like a probably a balance in there like you don't have to offer something.

Whitney: Right. No, but what I'm saying is

Amy: You don't have to need them. You You can just be friends.

Whitney: Yeah. True. Yeah. But at first, when you don't really know them,

Amy: What are you offering?

Whitney: yeah, or, "Hey, yeah, I value your opinion on this," or, I don't know. So, really, we don't we've got we got nothing. We got nothing for you. No, I think we've given some good advice. I think so.

Amy: So I think though that I think you can just say, "I like you and I want to be friends." It doesn't have to be weird.

Whitney: Yeah. Just like little Presley did. That's right.

Amy: It doesn't have to be weird. I think that um I have done that in the past and then like you can relax into that. And I think that starting out with me and Knack, it took me a while to believe that he just wanted to be friends with me for me, and I remember we were he and I This was before text messaging. We were calling each other every single day, and I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I think we're actually friends." And it took me a while to accept that that like we really loved each other and were just friends. And like it cuz he I just put him on a pedestal a bit, and so I I I and I wasn't offering anything, you know, except just me. And so, and like we we were just having a good time and just got along just as people. And so, like I think there's just like a valuation thing that you can be in there and be like, "You know what? I'm I'm great and I'm a good friend and I like you just for you." And so, recognizing that, doing the self-work, and then just saying like, "Let's be friends. Like let's let's go hang let's go hang."

Whitney: Yeah. Yeah. "I want to be friends," yeah. "My name is Whitney. Yeah, let's be friends."

Amy: Yeah. "Let's go hang."

Whitney: Agreed. It can be that easy.

Amy: Yes. It can be that easy.

Whitney: It can be that easy. So, just a little recap, Max Life isn't built on how many people you know on LinkedIn, or how many people are liking your posts.

Amy: LinkedIn.

Whitney: It's built I know. It's built on who you can call at 2:00 a.m. when you have a a crisis, or when you feel like your world's collapsing. Your partner can be that, but it's also necessary to have at least one other person that you can call on. The spouse is great, but that one friend that you can talk about your spouse with.

Amy: Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney: And have this person be, you know, deal uh transactional not transactional, deal-type friends. They are true, true connections.

Amy: Mhm. Yes.

Whitney: Now, we've audited your portfolio, we've fixed your inner circle, we've looked at how you process the world around you. Next week, or next episode in the series, we are diving into part four, the scout mindset.

Amy: Scout.

Whitney: The scout mindset. We're going to teach you the protocol for choosing truth over your own ego.

Amy: I know you like you do that cuz you do that. You're always thinking about your truth. Oh, god, I thought you were saying I was choosing my ego. Thank god.

Whitney: No.

Amy: Choosing truth over your ego, you better stop doing that.

Whitney: No, I'm saying you do that. You choose truth over your own ego, so you can stop blocking your own growth.

Amy: Okay. Okay. Fuck, yeah.

Whitney: All right. So we'll see you with that and help you create an anything-but-mid life, a Max Life.

Amy: Yes, yes, yes. I love it. Max Life, if you will.

Whitney: Real science, if you will.

Amy: Real science. Thank you, Whitney. That was so That's so interesting.

Whitney: Real science. Yeah. You're welcome.

Amy: Thank you, friend.

Whitney: Thank you, friend.

Amy: Yeah. We want to know what you think. Please email us, anythingbutmidpodcast@gmail. We would love to hear from you. And yeah, um

Whitney: And do what you want.

Amy: Ultimately, do what you want.

Announcer: Please follow and subscribe to Anything But Mid anywhere you get your podcasts. Email us your mid-moment at anythingbutmidpodcast@gmail.com. And remember, we do what we want.