DHEA

Anything But Mid is hosted by Amy Edwards and Whitney Stropp. Neither host is a doctor and nothing here is medical advice. Lightly cleaned for readability.

Amy: I'm Amy.

Whitney: And I'm Whitney. And this is Midlife.

Amy: It is. And you're anything but mid.

Whitney: You are.

Amy: Hello, everybody. Hello, hello, hello. Have you got a mid moment?

Whitney: Well, yes. I So, I'm, you know, I'm doing this series, the about maxing your life out. Arthur Brooks, Arthur Brooks, the scientist or Head in the game, Whitney. Yes, I've got to get it in there. Head in the game. I'm having a mid moment right now. Anyway, and so I'm trying to put into practice, and I'm gonna talk about it on my next episode, how to put everything into practice, and so I've been trying to do that. And, for example, one of the things is, when you get up in the morning, and we know this, when you get up in the morning, don't get on your phone, you know? Take a minute, 30 minutes, to sit, to kind of evaluate your day, think about what you want for the day. Take a moment to take in Gratitude, all that kind of stuff.

Amy: Yeah, all of those things.

Whitney: Yeah. And so I was like, all right, I'm gonna start doing this. So, this morning, I get up, and instead of immediately getting on my phone, I'm like, I'm gonna jump in the shower and just like That's gonna be my my quiet time or whatever. I needed to shower, anyway.

Amy: Nice. Oh, it's good for your energy.

Whitney: Yeah, so I was like, okay, great. So, I get in there, and all these, like, great ideas are flowing through me while I'm in the shower. And I remembered I remember hearing once like, right before you fall asleep and right when you wake up are kind of your most creative moments. And I was like, "Oh, this is awesome, and yeah, this and this and this." And then, I got out of the shower, and I forgot all of it. Shit. And so, for the rest of the day, I've been thinking, "What were those great ideas? What?" I can't remember.

Amy: Shit.

Whitney: I know. I'm gonna have to like have a notebook.

Amy: Waterproof notebook? Is that a thing?

Whitney: No.

Amy: You need to invent one.

Whitney: But, if I had

Whitney: If I had Alexa or something in the room, I could've been like, "Alexa, remind me of this." But, you know what, I could do it with my phone.

Amy: Yes, you could.

Whitney: I could do Siri.

Amy: "Hey, Siri, take these notes. Write this down."

Whitney: Yeah. But isn't that funny? Like, I got in the shower, and literally just some great ideas were coming to me. And just like, this

Amy: What like What kind of ideas, or do you not have any idea?

Whitney: Well, like, a kind of Well, some of them were involved in our podcast. Like, I was like, "Oh, we I should do this, or I should I should talk about this next." And then, also, some of it was about my friends, because you know, another thing that Arthur Brooks talks about is creating deep relationships and having, you know, real, meaningful friendships. And that means actually contacting them, not just texting or DMing them.

Amy: It does. It does.

Whitney: And so, I was having thoughts of like, "Oh, I should do"

Amy: Wait, texting doesn't count?

Whitney: Not really. Mm. It It's kind of shallow. You know?

Amy: Yeah, I guess.

Whitney: I mean, it's

Amy: I mean, it counts for something.

Whitney: Well, let me ask you this. Are you texting and then waiting for the answer? Or are you just going, "Hey, how you doing?" and then you put it down and you don't look at the response for an hour? Depends. It depends.

Amy: It depends. It varies.

Whitney: A phone call is better, but, you know, maybe you're text

Amy: A phone call is better. You're actually You're totally right. It really is.

Whitney: But it just depends, I guess, on the moment. But anyway, so I was having some thoughts about, "Oh, I could reach out to this person," or I think I was talk- thinking about sending flowers to somebody.

Amy: Oh. That's nice.

Whitney: Isn't that nice? If I could remember.

Amy: Maybe we should all send surprise flowers to people.

Whitney: Wouldn't you love to get surprise flowers?

Amy: Yeah. Hell, I love getting flowers.

Whitney: Me, too. I love to get flowers, as well.

Amy: Okay, send us flowers.

Whitney: All right. Yeah. So, my mid moment, well, it's good.

Amy: I've become a great-aunt. I have become a great-aunt.

Whitney: So,

Amy: So,

Whitney: Congratulations!

Amy: Thank you. I've been an aunt for many years, and now I am a great-aunt. My niece had a baby. And my sister is a grandmother. And

Whitney: Yes, that's crazy.

Amy: It's So, I don't know if you have great-aunts.

Whitney: I am a great-aunt.

Amy: You are a great-aunt.

Whitney: And then I had great-aunts, but I didn't really know them, so they weren't that great.

Amy: I had two that I knew. And one was named Edna, and one was named Irene.

Whitney: They do sound very great-auntish.

Amy: That's the thing. It sounds so fucking old to me, and

Whitney: Old. But your name's not Edna.

Amy: They were very old. I mean, Edna was always, like, hurt. She wasn't nice really.

Whitney: Okay, but was she really old, like, or do you just perceive her as old, but she was like 55?

Amy: I think she was really old. I think she was really old. And then she was always breaking something. And I have a picture of her somewhere. It's a Polaroid, and I don't know how I ended up with this Polaroid, but she looks like she's in a body cast. Like, she looks like she's in

Whitney: Oh, my goodness.

Amy: full I know. And I remember her, like, breaking things, like And I just that's what I think of when I think of great-aunt. My other great-aunt, she was awesome. Irene. But Irene was a lifelong smoker, and never did shit to her face, and oh, she was just a wrinkle. Like, she was just very, very wrinkly. So, she was cool. She had a raspy voice, and a wrinkly face. So, I think of her as very old, too. Like, they seemed like old. And so, my knowledge and my thoughts about

Whitney: Great-aunt.

Amy: my concept of a great-aunt is old. And the fact that I'm a great-aunt And I don't know if I told you this one. My sister told me my niece was pregnant and everything. I was like She was like, "You'll be a great-aunt." And I go, "No. No." A great-aunt is like the grandmother's sister. That was our grandmother's sister. She goes, "Yeah. That's you." And I was like,

Whitney: How old is your niece?

Amy: She's 29, maybe? 29.

Whitney: Yeah. I mean, that seems about right. But it is weird. My I was a great-aunt very young, because my nephew had a baby when he was 20. So, it doesn't really stick with me. I kind of think of it as great. You're a great aunt.

Amy: Oh, wow. Yeah. Let's call it that.

Whitney: Yeah. And then, all of those kids call me the same thing. Like, I'm everyone's aunt.

Amy: Yeah. What do they call you?

Whitney: Aunt Whee.

Amy: Aunt Whee? That's cute.

Whitney: Aunt Whee.

Amy: Aunt Whee. Could someone not say Whitney along the way, and they said Aunt Whee?

Whitney: No, I actually chose that for myself. I actually came up with that myself.

Amy: Okay. Cool. That's cute.

Whitney: But, at the time, I was thinking Whee! But now, it's wee-wee. Like, you know, they make jokes about it. But whatever, it's fine. I think it's cute. Aunt Whee.

Amy: Yeah. That's cute. That's cute. I'm Aunt Mimi. Cuz Amy, Mimi. Yeah.

Whitney: Yeah, so that's what this kid will call you, too.

Amy: Yes. Yes. That's what Samantha calls me. So, Okay. It's gonna be all right. It's just a mid moment. It's It's good. A lot of these mid moments are good and bad, you know what I mean? Like, they're they're

Whitney: Yes. It's just part of You're just like, "Oh, I'm in that mid I'm in this midlife."

Amy: It's true. It's true.

Whitney: It's It's time for that. You're like, "Wait." That's, sometimes, when I'll read something that goes, "Oh, this house was built in 1999." And I'm like, "Well, that's not," and then I'm like, "Oh, shit. It's 2026."

Amy: Nearly 30 years old.

Whitney: That's when it That's what's happening. It's not connecting with your brain reality of

Amy: Right. Right. It's not.

Whitney: high school was just a few years ago.

Amy: Yeah, and it's 40 years ago or something, you know? All right.

Whitney: Well, you'll have to send me photos of the new baby. What's the baby's name?

Amy: I will. I will. I will post James.

Whitney: James.

Amy: A classic.

Whitney: A classic. Baby James.

Amy: Baby James, sweet Baby James. All right, so today we're diving into DHEA.

Whitney: Yes, I'm excited. I can't wait to find out what you've learned.

Amy: I am disturbed.

Whitney: Oh, no.

Amy: I have quit taking DHEA as of this research.

Whitney: No way. Seriously?

Amy: Yes.

Whitney: Oh, no. Am I I'm not taking it right now, but But it was part of my regime for a while.

Amy: Yeah. Well, I just had mine upped, and now I'm like, I cut it out. I cut it out. So, I know, I know. And I'm not even I'm I'm going to have to have a talk with my practitioner about why it was upped, because I've cut it I'm cutting it out. And I really think that this breakout that I've been having on my face,

Whitney: Okay. Because you're taking it. Okay.

Amy: Yeah. Because I I've been doing so well, and then I upped my DHEA, and I'm fucking breaking out again. And I read this, and I'm like, "Okay, no." I I'm pretty sure.

Whitney: All right. Well, we're gonna have to dive in, because, obviously, most doctors, and even my functional medicine doctors, think that it's

Amy: I think it's the DHEA.

Whitney: it's valuable. So, I'll be curious.

Amy: but, according to the Mayo Clinic, that is not proven. So, you know what, I did did the best research I could, and from what I'm reading, a lot of things were like, "Not proven, not proven, not proven." So,

Whitney: But our bodies do make it on our own.

Amy: Yes, we do.

Whitney: And it decreases as we get older.

Amy: Yes, it does. Yes, it does. That was all correct. I feel like I'm going to skip around a little bit, but I'm going to do my best, okay?

Whitney: I'm going to try not to ask too many questions and let you let you just go.

Amy: Yeah. So, well, ask questions. I like it.

Whitney: Hey, you're not wearing headphones.

Amy: No, I'm not. Should I put them on?

Whitney: No, I just realized. I'm like, "One of us is not like the other."

Amy: Okay, I didn't want to mess up my hair. Huh. Do I sound good, though?

Whitney: Yeah.

Amy: Okay, great. Great.

Whitney: I think so.

Amy: So, I practiced this. Dehydroepiandrosterone, andosterone, andosterone, androstenedione. Anyway, it's a steroid hormone, made mainly in the outer layers of the adrenal glands, and smaller amounts are made in your ovaries, testes, if you have them, and even the brain, right? It's a precursor hormone. We knew that. It doesn't really work on its own, but it does other things, cuz it converts into other hormones. So, we kind of knew that, right? It's helping us convert into testosterone and estrogen, which we need.

Whitney: DHEA.

Amy: The conversion pathway goes something like: cholesterol, pregnenolone, which is next week,

Whitney: Oh, you said that so nicely.

Amy: I've been thinking a lot about pregnenolone. Yeah. Then, DHEA, which my DHEA is coupled with pregnenolone, and so now I'm like, ooh, now I'm not going to have that. But anyway, then it moves into androstenedione, and then testosterone and estradiol. Okay. So, whatever. That doesn't matter. So, you understand it's converting. That's the most important thing, right? And

Whitney: Pregnenolone. Okay.

Amy: DHEA supplies roughly 75% of a woman's estrogen before menopause, and it really matters after menopause, which is why it can be valuable, right?

Whitney: That's why people are prescribing it with their HRT.

Amy: Yes. Yes, exactly. That's why it's it's really important. But I'm sitting here reading that you don't take it with estrogens. So, I'm just like, why am I taking it at the same time as my estrogen? So, I feel like I need to talk to someone about that, which, stay tuned. I'm going to. So, it circulates in the blood, mostly bound to sulfur, so it's called DHEA DHEAS. So, DHEA sulfate. So, that's what they're measuring when they do a blood test. They're measuring it floating around in your blood, right? That's how the levels are. And we'll we'll talk more about the testing, but there's not like an optimal level, apparently. So, So,

Whitney: So, they're testing, but they don't know what level you should be at.

Amy: Right. Exactly. So, it's just fucking throwing darts and guessing, you know? And then they're looking at your other levels and going, "Well, maybe we should eat Maybe we should up that DHEA, and then it'll help your estrogen and everything." So, okay. So,

Whitney: Yeah. Yeah.

Amy: let's talk about the history for a second. It was isolated from human urine in 1934, and then pretty much was discovered as the sulfate form, the thing floating around in your blood with the S on the end, 10 years later in 1944. In the '80s then, people were like, this is it. This is longevity, this is the Fountain of Youth. It was marketed like that, but there was nothing really backing it and then the FDA looked into it and they were like, sorry, no. They banned over-the-counter DHEA in 1985 specifically because there wasn't enough safety and efficacy evidence. So, it was reapproved in 1994, and now this what I read was that it's sold without a prescription, but I have a prescription for it. Don't you? Is it prescribed to you?

Whitney: No, it it was prescribed to me, but then I think I could just get it on Amazon.

Amy: Yeah, okay. Well, be careful. Because from what I've read, quality control and dosing consistency across brands is not great.

Whitney: I think it was Yeah, go ahead. That's everything. Yeah, that's that's the story of everything.

Amy: I know. Are we just getting annoyed by everything? I am. I am.

Whitney: Yes. I was thinking about it today. I'm like all these supplements and just make the food better.

Amy: No shit. No shit. I know.

Whitney: 'Cause our ancestors weren't thinking about all this shit.

Amy: Well, they also only lived, I mean if they lived to 50, that was

Whitney: True. Women were like worn out.

Amy: Great. Didn't live to 50 and had like eight babies, and didn't have birth control and shit. Okay, so current expert consensus as of 2023 and an academic review then, treats DHEA as a genuine research area for longevity and brain health. So, this is being studied for that. But, you know, it's it's recreational misuse is one of the things that they say, because healthy people It's classified as a supplement more than a drug in many countries, so it can be overdone in your body and we don't want that, right? So, because that presents its own problems. Case in point, my acne, I think. So, the Mayo Clinic, their current official guideline is that they say avoid it. They consider it something to avoid. I know. I went and like really, really looked at this.

Whitney: Oh, wow. Why haven't we really heard that? That's crazy.

Amy: I don't I don't know and keep in mind we're not doctors. I'm going to put what I can in the show notes, like look it up though.

Whitney: When did When Do you have the like when did the Mayo Clinic say that? Like when did that come out or do you have that?

Amy: You know, I don't have the date right here, but I can look it up. So, anyway,

Whitney: Just out of curiosity, 'cause nobody's talking about that.

Amy: it's current on their website, right?

Whitney: Yeah.

Amy: So, they say for general supplementation, it's it can be helpful for like your mood, for vaginal atrophy, but there's not enough evidence for anti-aging claims and real side effect risk. So, That's on mayoclinic.org, if you want to look it up. So,

Whitney: It was in 2006.

Amy: 2006?

Whitney: Yeah.

Amy: God, that seems fucking old.

Whitney: That was their landmark 2-year clinical study they conducted alongside other institutions in 2006.

Amy: Well, that's 20 years ago.

Whitney: Yeah. Crazy.

Amy: Okay, well, sorry. Maybe

Whitney: No, I mean, that that's what's frustrating is It was 20 years ago. But we have whatever.

Amy: Well, some of the good things about it. So, it is of course the precursor to hormones, as we said. Are you sitting here researching DHEA now?

Whitney: No. No, I'm just going to say, do they still believe that?

Amy: Oh, do they?

Whitney: I'm about to find out.

Amy: She's asking her AI assistant here.

Whitney: My best friend.

Amy: Oh, Lord.

Whitney: Yeah, they maintain the routine of DHEA supplements is doubtful and generally not recommended.

Amy: Okay. Generally not recommended. Well, the good things about it, it can decrease inflammation. Of course, it is helping you make hormones, both testosterone, estrogen. And it can improve your insulin sensitivity. We like that.

Whitney: That is good.

Amy: It can improve memory and brain function, it can improve libido and sexual function. We like that. It can include improve red blood cell production, regulate your menstrual cycles and help with your bone metabolism and osteoporosis. So, that's good, right? Now, if you have too much though,

Whitney: Those are good things.

Amy: things can go haywire, including PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome.

Whitney: Oh, yeah.

Amy: We don't want that, right?

Whitney: No.

Amy: That's the most common disorder of hormones in women of reproductive age. So, that might not be us, so right. We don't want that. So, anyway,

Whitney: I'm not reproducing anymore.

Amy: now, other things other Oh, no, that's PCOS. Okay. So, also medications can There are some medications that can increase the levels of DHEA in your blood. One of those is vitamin D3. I take that.

Whitney: Which everyone's Yeah, women of our age

Amy: So, that's increasing your DHEA. So, maybe that's good.

Whitney: That's

Amy: Maybe that's good, right? If you're taking your D,

Whitney: Are you getting your vitamin D?

Amy: the other ones I could read you, but they're a mouthful and so, I would say look it up and I don't recognize any of the other ones. Vitamin D3 was the biggie.

Whitney: Yeah. Which we're all taking because our doctors tell us that that's Right. what we need.

Amy: So, vitamin D is going to help natural hormones, I've read across the board, including testosterone, but if you're producing more DHEA with it, that's what's going to convert into hormones, so that's good. Take your vitamin D. Okay. So, I want to point out, where is it, that DHEA is classified as a an anabolic steroid. Did you know that?

Whitney: You said it at the beginning, but I did not know that.

Amy: Meaning it is prohibited for athletes. So, when it's tested,

Whitney: Oh, they're not allowed to have it.

Amy: Mm-mm.

Whitney: Because it it it boosts performance enhancement, then I want it.

Amy: And I wonder Yeah. Right. It can That's one of the things that like elevated, it can make your voice lower, it can make you grow hair and it can define your muscles. So, it's all those things. Isn't that wild?

Whitney: That's crazy.

Amy: So, it's classified as a steroid that is performance-enhancing, so that can be good, but how do they tell? Like how do they tell if you're taking it, because if you just have elevated levels, what if you have naturally big DHEA?

Whitney: Well, they test it. Big DHEA energy.

Amy: Big DHEA energy. Yes.

Whitney: Big

Amy: So, So, people are using it to get better physical performance and also they're believing in it as anti-aging and using to treat depression and symptoms of menopause, right? So, the research that's being done, and again, I just want to say this 'cause it's written in my notes right here, but a synthetic version is available as tablet, capsule, powder, topical cream, and gel. So, you got you got all the options. Yes.

Whitney: All the options. Got all the options.

Amy: So, in theory, it should slow the aging process, right? It's being researched still for aging, but research hasn't proven this to be true. Most more studies are needed to better understand whether DHEA supplementation can counteract some effects of aging. But a small study does suggest that taking DHEA supplements might improve skin hydration and firmness and reduce age spots in older adults. We like that. We like that a lot. It also can be helpful in treating depression. It can be mood-elevating until you take too much and then you're stressed out. So, osteoporosis. Studies have found the effects of DHEA supplementation in the treatment of osteoporosis, those have been a little bit mixed. More research is needed. Vaginal atrophy.

Whitney: This has been around. When When did they find it in the urine? Like this is Why I don't understand why it's so

Amy: Because they don't study shit on women, maybe. Maybe, I don't know. Maybe. Vaginal atrophy, can help improve vaginal dryness in postmenopausal women when treatment is given like on your vagina.

Whitney: Well, I told you that my friend said she takes

Amy: Yes, you did.

Whitney: Now, I don't I assumed it was a pill. I thought she said she takes DHEA about 15 minutes before she wants to have sex and she's very juicy.

Amy: Nice. Did she use that word?

Whitney: I think I used that word.

Amy: Okay, okay, okay.

Whitney: I'm not sure the word that she used, but that was the intention.

Amy: Interesting. Okay. So, research on the effects of DHEA on muscle strength and physical performance have been mixed mixed results. It's had mixed results, but most studies indicate DHEA supplementation has no effect on muscle strength in younger or older adults and then of course the NCAA has banned DHEA among athletes.

Whitney: Which that which then makes me think that it does have that ef- effect, 'cause it's being banned. So, obviously it's giving them an advantage.

Amy: Yeah. I know. Isn't that wild?

Whitney: But I don't need anything else in my system that creates hair in weird places, like I'm already dealing with that.

Amy: Me too! Me too! My chin is like a whole thing.

Whitney: I've got little ones right here.

Amy: Yeah, I get those, too. I pull those out.

Whitney: Thankfully, my magnifying mirror finds them, but But isn't it interesting, just like right here?

Amy: Right there. On the corners of our mouth. Yep. You're not alone.

Whitney: Yeah. What if I just let It's like a Is that a Fu Manchu?

Amy: Fu Manchu. What if you just let them grow out?

Whitney: Yeah.

Amy: I mean,

Whitney: It could be a look.

Amy: Are they red? Are yours red?

Whitney: No, they're black.

Amy: Uh-uh!

Whitney: Isn't that bizarre?

Amy: Wow, that sucks. What the hell?

Whitney: But thankfully, 'cause I can see them.

Amy: Yeah, thankfully.

Whitney: If they were like a light red, they might hide.

Amy: All right, so back to DHEA. So, possible interactions include estrogen. It says don't take DHEA with estrogen, which I'm like that's precisely what I've been fucking doing.

Whitney: That's exactly what you were doing. Yeah.

Amy: So, I'm stopping. It might cause symptoms of excess estrogen, such such as nausea, headache, insomnia. I'm taking these before bed and I'm having trouble sleeping. So, I'm like, motherfucker.

Whitney: Oh, interesting. Wait, are you taking all of your hormones before bed?

Amy: No, testosterone's in the morning.

Whitney: But progesterone, estradiol, and DHEA are at night?

Amy: Yeah. That's what they told me.

Whitney: Oh. It's such a That's That's something that is I'll probably do an episode on that, because the things you have to think about. I used to take all the pills in the morning. Boom, all at once. And then come to find out, some need to be on an empty stomach, some can't be with this, some need vitamin C, some you do at night. And then you just go, fuck it.

Amy: It's really This has irritated me.

Whitney: Yeah, that's crazy. I can't wait for you to go back and speak to your

Amy: This has pissed me off. I know, I feel I may send an email.

Whitney: Your provider. Oh. Well.

Amy: I may send an email, yeah. I may message them.

Whitney: You send an email.

Amy: It might if if you're on SSRIs or anything for anti-depressant, use of DHEA with certain antidepressants may cause manic symptoms.

Whitney: Oh, my gosh.

Amy: Fuck. Right? Don't use DHEA with testosterone. Combining DHEA and testosterone might cause symptoms such as, well, low sperm count, we don't care.

Whitney: Fu Manchu.

Amy: Typically male characteristics in women. Exactly. And it can elongate your vocal cords.

Whitney: Ooh.

Amy: Okay. And then don't use it with the sedative, triazolam. I don't know what that is. So, anyway, so like you said, you know, it it It peaks when we're in our 20s or whatever, and then declines steadily through your life. There is actually an age-related decline of it called adrenopause. Did you know that?

Whitney: I didn't.

Amy: Isn't that interesting?

Whitney: Adrenopause.

Amy: Yeah. By age 70, it's really, really low. I'm guessing you do need to supplement. I'm just so confused.

Whitney: My mom was put on DHEA along with estradiol, testosterone.

Amy: I know. I wonder if she's taking them together. You know, I need to do a little supplemental research on this and find out time of day that it is recommended.

Whitney: But it sounds like it's not even recommended anymore. We need to get we need to write some emails.

Amy: Yeah. Yeah. High circulating DHEA is considered a possible marker of human longevity, right?

Whitney: Okay.

Amy: We like that. It is considered a possible marker. That's important to remember.

Whitney: Remember, yeah.

Amy: Right. It drops in cases of adrenal insufficiency, which makes me wonder about like my thyroid and things like that, right?

Whitney: Mm-hmm.

Amy: And it can drop if you're under acute stress or anorexic.

Whitney: Acute, just a little cute stress. So cute.

Amy: My my Oura Ring is monitoring my stress levels.

Whitney: Oh, which is it's monitoring your cortisol?

Amy: I don't know if it's heart rate based or what. How could it figure out my cortisol?

Whitney: Yeah. I don't know.

Amy: And then it'll have this thing during the day, and often it's accurate, but then sometimes it'll be like a stress spike and I literally have no clue. I'm like, what was I doing right then? Yesterday I had one, and sometimes it'll even be during sex. And I'm like, I'm not stressed out.

Whitney: Well, that makes sense, though. Your everything kind of Your adrenaline goes.

Amy: I guess so.

Whitney: I mean

Amy: My heart rate's all over the place, but it doesn't seem to be able to determine that that's not a I don't think it's a stressful situation for me.

Whitney: Yeah. Yeah. Your body's in stress, maybe. It's it's pleasurable, but

Amy: It can be strenuous.

Whitney: Yeah. There's a lot of exercising

Amy: Oh, my god.

Whitney: happening in the bedroom.

Amy: Yeah. So anyway,

Whitney: Does that happen when you're working out?

Amy: Yes.

Whitney: See, I think that's the same.

Amy: That must be. Yeah. DHEA and cortisol, though, have a weird

Whitney: Relationship.

Amy: relationship. Yes. It has anti-cortisol effects, so it can dial down cortisol's activity in the body,

Whitney: Okay. Good.

Amy: but also too much can make you stressed out.

Whitney: I think that's the case with a lot of the medications and supplements that we take. It's just it's finding the exact right dosage, and then making sure that your body is continuing to metabolize it in the same way. I almost feel like forget the Oura Rings. Take my blood every day. Give me the If we could just do a pinprick every day to see where my hormone level is today. What's the You know?

Amy: Yeah.

Whitney: Because I feel like my body is constantly changing, and so what I'm taking right now might not be That was for 6 months ago, Whitney.

Amy: Yeah. Actually, that's true.

Whitney: Anyway.

Amy: Especially where we're at. You're a little further along this menopause path than I am, and we are just guessing that the algae experiment that I did when I went off everything threw me into menopause. Maybe it was going to happen anyway. We don't know. You know? Like it might have been.

Whitney: Well, that's when it started for me, at 50. That's when my periods started going away.

Amy: I don't know. Okay.

Whitney: So let's blame algae.

Amy: I mean, we don't know, right? You can also test DHEA in your saliva, apparently. So that can capture a daily rhythm, and so I don't know. Everlywell talks about this. So I'm wondering if you can maybe, instead of pinpricking, you could test your saliva.

Whitney: But I want the whole the whole shebang, not just the DHEA. I want to know

Amy: You want to have a lab in your house every day.

Whitney: Yeah. I mean, I'm probably would be one of those people. If I could if I had the money like Bryan Johnson,

Amy: Johnson.

Whitney: I would love to have my markers constantly measured. And I do. I get a lot of blood work done.

Amy: I don't know if that's healthy, though.

Whitney: It's a little obsessive.

Amy: It's obsessive. I think he might You know, now he's

Whitney: Well, you heard he has He's got a autoimmune

Amy: Yeah, I know. He's got an autoimmune disorder.

Whitney: which I just think is very And thankfully, I'm so glad he came out with the information because a lot of people in his position might try to hide it since he's so gung-ho on optimum health or whatever. But if you don't know, Bryan Johnson, who's the bigwig, multi-millionaire, Mormon guy that studies himself and says he's the most studied man in the world, his whole thing is "Don't Die", and he's been diagnosed with a rare autoimmune disease where his stomach eats itself,

Amy: Stomach disorder. Mhm.

Whitney: which is very interesting. So he shared that on his socials, and he's going to study it, which is great.

Amy: Yeah, I'm glad he came out about that, too.

Whitney: Yeah. But it just goes to show you some things I mean, genetics are going to come into play, and what you did prior. I mean, you can live clean.

Amy: Stress, relationships. He's you know, not really doing all the relationship stuff that you've been talking about.

Whitney: I I don't know. I mean, he does have a relationship with his kid. They're swapping blood and DNA or whatever. I think he has a girlfriend, but, yeah, I don't I don't want a life where I go to bed at 7:30 p.m. You know, I don't care how many, you know, erections he's getting at night. If you're not using them,

Amy: It's a little disordered. I don't, either. I don't I don't care, either. Like, who cares about I know too much about his boners.

Whitney: Who cares? Yeah.

Amy: I don't want to know anymore. Low DHEA symptoms, let's back to DHEA, fatigue, low libido, reduced bone density. It can be seen with diabetes, dementia, lupus, chronic fatigue syndrome, but those are associations, not proof that DHEA low DHEA causes them. Acute stress raises your DHEA temporarily, peaking near the end of a stressful episode, then returns to baseline, but chronic, ongoing stress suppresses DHEA over time. So if you're under chronic stress, you definitely need to supplement it, or just actually get out of chronic stress,

Whitney: Yeah. Go work Go on a run or

Amy: right? Go

Whitney: sit in the sauna.

Amy: do something. Get out of a the situation, whatever it is. So anyway, that's super interesting, too. So the fact that Mayo Clinic says avoid it is wild to me. And so I, personally, am going to cut it out for a little while and see what happens. So

Whitney: I'm not taking it anymore. I stopped. Yeah. I I stopped, but I didn't I don't know if

Amy: Really? Oh.

Whitney: if that made a difference on anything. I still

Amy: Interesting.

Whitney: Yeah. And that was just because I couldn't remember why I was taking it, and I just thought, uh.

Amy: Okay. Maybe you did mention that. Yeah, that rings a bell. Okay. Evidence is decent that vaginal DHEA, so I would say topical, right?

Whitney: Mm-hmm.

Amy: helps, right? We like that.

Whitney: In the moment. In the magical moment.

Amy: Especially for postmenopausal women. Mhm. Can be possibly helping for depression, too. Evidence is weak or mixed on anti-aging claims. Muscle strength and physical performance, studies have shown no effect, but it's still flagged as a performance-enhancing drug, and evidence is mixed on osteoporosis treatment. So as I said, it is banned by World Anti-Doping Agency and NCAA as performance-enhancing anabolic steroid. So that's very interesting. Safety flags, as I said, don't combine with estrogen or testosterone,

Whitney: Which is exactly what we're all doing.

Amy: avoid with certain antidepressants because it could cause mania. That sucks. And avoid if you're pregnant or breastfeeding. And if you have any hormone-sensitive cancers, use caution with high cholesterol or heart disease. It may lower good cholesterol, HDL. Side effects: oily skin, acne, unwanted hair growth. And DHEA use may also worsen mood disorders and raise mania risk, right, if you have any mood issues, which I don't know. I might. So that's pretty much it. But it does say stress management practices like yoga and meditation, mindfulness-based stress reduction can help your natural DHEA, right?

Whitney: Mm-hmm.

Amy: And then also eat more fiber, have less sugar.

Whitney: All the typical things. Sleep.

Amy: Things we know to do!

Whitney: Yeah. Yeah.

Amy: That's my report on DHEA, everyone.

Whitney: All right. Thank you. I I'm surprised. I thought it was going to be something we all

Amy: I am shocked.

Whitney: wanted. Yeah.

Amy: I was totally Like the further I went, the more I was like, what is happening?

Whitney: Honestly, the more we do this show, the more I start to come to the conclusion that maybe we're doing it all wrong. Maybe the stress of all these pills and the supplements and the timing and the schedules is is doing more harm than good, and let your body naturally do what it knows to do, because I was just reading something recently about how, eventually, you go back Like, because, you know, we've got brain fog and, you know, bone issues and skin issues and all that, and that's why we're putting all these hormones back into our bodies. But eventually, it evens out. Like my mom at 60 and 70 is very on top of it and sharp. She's not I mean, now granted, recently, more recently, she's losing some words, but I'm losing words.

Amy: Yeah, me, too. You know?

Whitney: Me, too. So I'm kind of leaning towards just getting a garden in my backyard or something.

Amy: I mean, really, for real, the more the more we can get off screens, like it's almost like, if we put all our screens away and just lived life, what might happen? We might sleep better and, as a result, we're eating better and, as a result, we're producing hormones. I mean like

Whitney: Well, you're going to start doing You're going to start diversify you're you're going to put more time and energy into those four pillars that I talk about in my series. Yeah.

Amy: Yes! Yes! Yes, so

Whitney: Yeah. Definitely think that technology has messed us up in many ways. Anyway, all right.

Amy: On that note, thanks for watching.

Whitney: Thanks for listening.

Amy: I mean, I've got two screens that I'm staring at right here.

Whitney: I know, right? And we're, and whoever's watching, you're staring at a screen, or you're using your phone.

Amy: Yes. I mean, I don't know if we can escape.

Whitney: There's plus plus and minuses to it. I think it's, you know, we just have to be It's awareness.

Amy: There is. Yeah, it is. It's awareness. So thank you for watching. Email us at anythingbutmidpodcast@gmail. We'd love to hear from you. Follow the show. Follow us on Instagram, and all that good stuff. Thank you so much for being here. Remember,

Whitney: We do what we want.

Amy: We do what we want.