Impostor Syndrome

Anything But Mid is hosted by Amy Edwards and Whitney Stropp. Neither host is a doctor and nothing here is medical advice. Lightly cleaned for readability.

Whitney: Are you doing it first?

Amy: I almost said, "I'm Whitney." I'm Amy.

Whitney: And I'm Whitney, and this is midlife.

Amy: But you're anything but mid.

Whitney: Boom. Nailed it.

Amy: Nailed it. Okay, cool. Was that for real?

Whitney: That was for real. That was for real. That wasn't practice, that was for real.

Amy: God.

Whitney: You have a little a little surprise for me today.

Amy: I do. I do. As we talked about in episode 11, as we talked about in episode 11, hydrogen water, this is molecular hydrogen tablets that we spoke about from Daniel Dr. Amen, Dr. Daniel Amen, BrainMD brand, and I ordered them, and this is your box. I have a box downstairs, so I brought you this box.

Whitney: Okay, great. Thank you.

Amy: So I have two cups of filtered water for us, and we're going to try these and drink them right away.

Whitney: Yes, but wait, well we have to read the instructions.

Amy: Oh, okay, okay.

Whitney: Because sometimes you have to let it dissolve. So it says, "Drop a tablet in a glass of water, allow tablet to dissolve, drink immediately. For optimal results, drink one to two servings per day. Okay. Do not swallow the tablet directly."

Amy: That's what I wanted to do.

Whitney: The shortcut.

Amy: Just glug a bunch of water, and then take this.

Whitney: There is no shortcut. Yes.

Amy: Okay, okay, got it.

Whitney: Wait, so here's yours.

Amy: Okay, there's yours. So I'm going to drop it in, and it is it's just like, it's effervescent, it's...

Whitney: It's dissolving. Wait, did it already? Oh, there it is.

Amy: Yeah, it's going. So we'll just drink it as we go.

Whitney: I wonder how long...

Amy: No, you have to drink it quickly, because remember they escape. Once this dissolves, it's not like you can sip it for 30 minutes. It has to be Those little hydrogen... Okay, what if it takes a while to dissolve?

Whitney: Well that's Well, that's that's the problem.

Amy: All right. Well anyway, I'm going to start drinking mine, cuz it's already dissolving.

Whitney: All right. Well, it says I'm a rule-follower, it says to wait until dissolved.

Amy: Oh, all right, well then.

Whitney: But I'm going to drink it, too.

Amy: Okay. There you go. It tastes kind of oxygen-y. Tastes a little old.

Whitney: Yeah, it does have a it's a I don't know that I would notice if I wasn't really focusing in on it, but it does have a taste.

Amy: Yeah, kind of like It tastes kind of like bad breath.

Whitney: I would not have said that, but now, uh.

Amy: It does, right?

Whitney: No, it just I can't put my finger on it. I I don't know what bad breath would taste like.

Amy: When you have morning, when you wake up in the morning.

Whitney: Oh, your own bad breath taste. Okay.

Amy: Or the

Whitney: I thought you were saying somebody else has bad breath and it tastes like that.

Amy: Well, the way it smells.

Whitney: But you're saying the mouth, the way your mouth tastes.

Amy: Yeah, yeah. Sort of. Anyway, whatever, it's still dissolving.

Whitney: It's fine. It's for it's for optimal health, so we're going to do it. Yeah, I wonder if you could stir it up.

Amy: Uh, did you bring it?

Whitney: And make it go faster.

Amy: Then you can use your pen if you want to, so.

Whitney: We're just going to wait. All right, well, thank you so much, I'm excited, and we do trust Dr. Amen, I really like his

Amy: Me too.

Whitney: philosophies. I think he has a lot of experience and expertise in the brain, so I'm here for it.

Amy: Me too, me too. And anyway, yeah, I trust his products and like what the quality and all that. Is it gone? No. Nope, it's still going, so. Anyway, now we're going to check it, right?

Whitney: We got to keep an eye on it, and then we got to chug it down like a pint of beer.

Amy: That's right.

Amy: Okay, so what else is going on? We're going to You're going to present today.

Whitney: Yeah, I am talking so our our email friend, Beth.

Amy: Yes. Oh, do do we want to cover a mid moment first, before...

Whitney: I was trying to think, and I can I think I can say I haven't had one, which...

Amy: I don't believe it. I think you just don't remember.

Whitney: That's me.

Amy: I think you just don't remember.

Whitney: Well, maybe it's the same ones all the time. Like yeah, I don't Oh, you know what? I had a mid moment today. I so I have my notes for my book report, and I had them out this morning, and I was reviewing them, and then I walked inside, and then they were no longer in my hands. And I'm like, "What happened to them?" And I walked back outside where I just was, not there.

Amy: It's still not there.

Whitney: Walk back into where I was when I realized they were gone, not there.

Amy: Where were they?

Whitney: I looked forever. I can't even remember now. Oh, they were in my No, I do, I have them now. I think they were in my closet. I don't even remember going into my closet. Like in my mind it was directly from outside, inside, "Where are my notes?" But then it happened a second time.

Amy: Oh, no.

Whitney: So then I find my notes, and I'm like, "Yay, I found my notes." And then I got sidetracked for a minute, and I'm walking out the door. I even locked my door, and then I'm like, "Wait, where are my notes?" I would It's so infuriating, and then I have to walk back in and be like, "Where are my notes?" Like if I am not constantly thinking, "Hang onto your notes. Hold onto your notes," or your phone or your car keys or like, "I'm putting my phone down right here,"

Amy: Right. Right.

Whitney: then I forget.

Amy: Wow. I feel the same way, I do the same thing, yeah.

Whitney: So, the same. I had double mid moment today with these damn notes.

Amy: My tablet's starting to float and it's uh almost done.

Whitney: Oh. See, I think a spoon would be good cuz then we could See, if you if you stir it around a little bit, shake it around.

Amy: We don't have spoons.

Whitney: I know, but I just shook mine around, and it all dissolved. All right, I'm doing it.

Amy: I'm doing it. I still have a little tablet.

Whitney: All right, let's go. Cheers. Oh, no, you got to swirl it around more.

Amy: Okay. My mid moment was I hurt my knee sleeping. So, you know, like...

Whitney: Oh man, that sucks.

Amy: I know, I know. All I did was sleep, and I got up in the morning and the muscle across my

Whitney: You fell to the ground?

Amy: My patella on my left side was just like, "You're not, you can't walk," and it was just crazy.

Whitney: You know what else is a mid moment?

Amy: Yeah.

Whitney: That you know the name of it is patella. I don't think younger kids, younger people, know the names of their body parts like we do.

Amy: I don't like this.

Whitney: It's kind of hard to get down.

Amy: It smells...

Whitney: Oh, and my I do still have a tablet in there.

Amy: I do, too.

Whitney: I thought it had dissolved.

Amy: No, it hasn't, so. All right, we'll revisit that in a few minutes.

Whitney: I don't know, this is a lot harder than I would have hoped. And, and it's supposed to be 16 oz, but we don't know if that's 16 oz. It's probably not.

Amy: I don't That's almost...

Whitney: That's more like 8 oz.

Amy: This is No, this is more than 8 oz.

Whitney: I really am not good at measurements, directions.

Amy: Yeah, I'm pretty good at it, and, yeah, this is bigger than 8 oz for sure. It's like that's like 12.

Whitney: I I would say that Dr. Amen needs to go talk to the makers of Alka-Seltzer, because I feel like I didn't have to wait this long for an Alka-Seltzer.

Amy: Mm-mm. No, Alka-Seltzer's fast, you know I still take it.

Whitney: Yeah. I Yeah, and I like it. For your for your patella.

Amy: I know, cuz I'm a senior citizen. I did see this place down by Casa de Luz here in Austin,

Whitney: Oh, yeah.

Amy: and it's called Alchemy and Alchemy Juice and stuff, and they have like a hydrogen water program. Well, they're like delivering it to your house and stuff, so I don't Yeah, but I don't I mean, I'm sure they know what they're doing, but... How does it stay in the water?

Whitney: Yeah, it has to it has to be packaged properly in order for you to get the benefits, which is why I'm OCDing on when the tablet tablet is gone. I still have a little bit.

Amy: Mine's done and I finished.

Whitney: Oh, my gosh, look, I still have a little tablet.

Amy: Yeah, you do.

Whitney: So I can't down it.

Amy: I don't love it.

Whitney: No, it's not It gets worse as it the more it dissolves.

Amy: It tastes bad. Yeah, you guys, it tastes like I It tastes like old paper or something.

Whitney: Yeah, it's not It's not.

Amy: So anyway. Well, we tried it so you don't have to.

Whitney: And look, do you...

Amy: Do we recommend it? I don't know, H2...

Whitney: I mean, the benefits can be really great, but I don't think that I can dedicate twice a day to drinking bad breath.

Amy: Old paper.

Whitney: Or old paper. I don't know.

Amy: I don't know, either.

Whitney: Maybe you get used to it. Is mine dissolved?

Amy: Yeah, I think it is. Chug it. Chug it, chug it.

Whitney: Oh, wait, no, I think there's a little bit.

Amy: Oh, come on, you can just drink it, chug. It's dissolving as you... Now stop and swirl it around. Oh wait, no, you got it, yeah.

Whitney: Oh, my gosh.

Amy: I know, it's

Whitney: I mean, and I have chugged a lot of nasty things,

Amy: Me too.

Whitney: but I don't think I can get behind that.

Amy: I can't.

Whitney: Look, you do what you want, you can try it, we'll we have a lot we've got a lot of hydrogen tablets here if somebody wants to.

Amy: Yeah, and if you yeah, if you want to try one, write to us. And if you've tried it and you like it, or you have a better brand or something, let us know.

Whitney: Yeah, it might be worth getting one that's already bottled and see if that makes a difference.

Amy: I guess. anythingbutmidpodcast@gmail, so please

Whitney: That's right.

Amy: let us know.

Whitney: Okay, people, now it's time,

Amy: Now it's time.

Whitney: it's time to discuss the impostor syndrome,

Amy: Cool.

Whitney: which, you know, our good friend Beth, who emailed us, emailed us one time and now she's our best friend, had asked us to cover impostor syndrome because I do think it gets worse as you get older.

Amy: Oh, I don't.

Whitney: No? Oh, really?

Amy: We'll we'll see.

Whitney: Well, okay, I see what you're saying, already, yeah. If you're older, and you want to try something new, or like I will get it sometimes, like and you're so good about this, Amy, with your clothing and your style, and and you say it on your own you know, socials all the time, like, "Wear what you want, age doesn't matter, like if you look good and feel good, go for it." But there are moments when I'll be like, "I look good, I feel good," and then I'll walk outside and I'm like, "I'm a total poser. Like, what am I doing?" And you have to get out of that mindset, so I do think, yeah.

Amy: Is it always clothing-related for you?

Whitney: No, it's anything I try, it's anything new that I try. But it's very interesting. So when I was doing the research on this, because everybody knows the term impostor syndrome, you know. And basically what it means is what you you you believe that you are not as competent or as good as people are perceiving you to be. So you you know, you're at work, and everyone's like, "You're killing it, you're killing it," and on the inside you're like, "I'm faking it. I have no fucking idea what I'm doing." And and it can happen in work, it can happen in your own home, in with, you know, your style, with when you're trying something new. And it can stop you dead in your tracks, and take away the joy of Like, for me, and I think this is you, too, Amy, we do try a lot of new things, we say yes to a lot, you know. And but that doesn't mean our brains aren't telling us not to do it, we just kind of step in with both feet and go, "If I drown, I'll find a life preserver."

Amy: Well, I think we both will laugh and not take ourselves too seriously. That is like a key for me.

Whitney: Right. Yes, definitely, and I also think, sadly, tragedy or trauma kind of, at least for me, makes me go, "You know what? Who the hell cares? Like I've been through the worst,

Amy: Seriously.

Whitney: what else I if I can handle this, if I fail at it, who cares?"

Amy: That's the part about getting older that I think helps with it. Like you just sort of go like it's not as big of a deal in the big picture of life as I used to think, you know. That's why That's why it surprised me when you said it gets worse as you get older, but I think that's the part where you're like, "Oh, I should have it all figured out, I should know what I'm doing," you know, and when really nobody does.

Whitney: Yes. There's actually something called the Dunning-Kruger flip, and it talks about the irony that actually the high-achievers, the people who actually do very well, are the ones that suffer from impostor syndrome the most, and it's because you've graduated from being unconsciously incompetent to consciously incompetent. It's almost like the more you know, the more you know you don't know. Does that make sense?

Amy: Right. So you're more of an impostor, yeah, yeah.

Whitney: Because you So it's actually a good thing if you're if you're feeling that impostor syndrome, it actually means that you're so aware that there's more to learn that you start to worry that you don't know enough or you're not doing enough. Does that make sense?

Amy: Oh, so you better be worried if you're not feeling it.

Whitney: Yeah, if you're not feeling it, you're actually not a high-achiever.

Amy: You don't know shit. Loser.

Whitney: But apparently, there's this woman, Dr. Valerie Young, and she wrote a book all about impostor syndrome called The Thoughts of Successful Women.

Amy: Cool. Okay.

Whitney: Isn't it interesting that it's successful women?

Amy: I love it.

Whitney: Cuz I do think women probably suffer from it more. Men are just taught, I think, to just be like

Amy: Oh, for sure.

Whitney: "Go in. I know what I'm doing, no big deal," and women are kind of taught to second-guess or stay quiet, sit in the back.

Amy: For sure, yes. Yeah.

Whitney: Have you seen those memes that are like, "If only I had the confidence of an average male"? Yeah.

Amy: Yeah. I mean, that's it's true. And like...

Whitney: I know. Not anymore, we're changing that

Amy: Tell me about the thoughts...

Whitney: on Anything But Mid.

Amy: Tell me about The Thoughts of Successful Women, though.

Whitney: Okay, well, what I'm going to tell you is that she came up with five archetypes for the impostor syndrome, and

Amy: Cool. I'm loving this by the way.

Whitney: Yes. And so I'm going to tell you the names of the archetypes, but before I tell you what they are, and you'll kind of figure it out from their names, we're going to take a little quiz. I know you love quizzes.

Amy: Oh. Yes, I love quizzes.

Whitney: Okay. All right. So the five archetypes are the Perfectionist, the Expert, the Natural Genius, the Soloist, and the Superhuman.

Amy: Oof. Okay.

Whitney: Okay? So, if you're listening, follow along. Maybe grab grab a pen and paper

Amy: It's like this Cosmo quiz.

Whitney: and you can't I love the Cosmo.

Amy: Do I need to do a pen and paper?

Whitney: If you want, yeah, you can just tally if you want, or I think you'll be able to figure it out on your in your on your own. But anyway, all right, here is the beginning of the self-assessment quiz for impostor syndrome, which archetype are you. You're going to listen to the statements that I read out loud, and you can keep a tally of how many times you say yes to them, okay? So this is Group A:

Do you feel like a failure if you get a 95% instead of 100%?

Do you have a hard time delegating because you're afraid it won't be done right?

Amy: So a no is just zero, and then a yes is like one?

Whitney: Yeah, if a yes is a tally, yeah.

Amy: Tally, okay.

Whitney: Yeah. Number three, when you finish a project, do you spend more time thinking about the one mistake you made rather than the overall success? So that's Group...

Amy: Can I put like a half point?

Whitney: Sure. Fair enough. There are no rules to this quiz. You can do a half point.

Amy: Fine, fine, okay.

Whitney: All right, Group B:

Do you shy away from applying for jobs unless you meet every single preferred qualification?

Amy: Nah.

Whitney: Are you constantly signed up for new certifications because you feel you don't know enough?

Amy: No, I don't have any.

Whitney: Okay. Do you feel like a fraud if someone asks you a question and you have to say, "I don't know"?

Amy: Okay.

Whitney: All right, now we're onto Group C:

Did things come easily to you as a kid and now you feel stupid when something takes effort?

Amy: Wait, say that one again, please.

Whitney: Did things come easily to you when you were a child that now you would feel stupid if something takes a little effort? You're so used to things, you know, coming easily that you think you're a failure if it is a little bit difficult. All right, do you avoid trying new hobbies or skills because you aren't immediately good at them?

Amy: Okay.

Whitney: Does having a mentor or tutor make you feel like you've already failed?

All right, the next grouping:

Do you feel like your achievements don't count if you had the help from a team? So do you feel like it's not doesn't count if somebody has to help you, if you didn't do it by yourself?

Is "I can do it myself" your most common phrase even when you're overwhelmed?

Amy: Is what?

Whitney: Is "I can do it myself" your common phrase even when you're feeling overwhelmed?

Amy: Ooh.

Whitney: Do you feel like a burden when you have to ask for clarification on instructions?

And the last group is:

Do you stay later at the office than everyone else to prove you are working hard enough?

Do you feel like you have to be the perfect friend, the perfect partner, the perfect employee, all at the same time?

Amy: Is that a new question?

Whitney: Yeah. And three, is your self-worth tied directly to how many items you checked off on your to-do list today?

Amy: 1 million%. Can I get a five for that one?

Whitney: Can I get a, "What, what?"

Amy: That's like four tallies.

Whitney: All right, so okay, so based on your answers, Amy, what was there what grouping did you have the most responses to?

Amy: Okay, uh let's see. It was Tell me the grouping number of numbers.

Whitney: Just like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. It's every three questions.

Amy: Every three questions, okay.

Whitney: Yes, so there's three, then three, then three, then three, then three.

Amy: I had the most either uh group Let's see, 1, 2, 3, 4. Group four or five.

Whitney: Okay, so...

Amy: And then also Group 1 I did.

Whitney: But what are the So they all the same? Like which one had the highest?

Amy: Probably Group 3.

Whitney: Okay, Group 3, that did things come easily to you as a kid and now you feel stupid, that one?

Amy: Um, no.

Whitney: Okay, I'm going to help you out. This is the last one.

Amy: Mhm. How many questions were there?

Whitney: There's five, or how many There's 15. So this is this is Group 5, this is Group 4, Group 3, Group 2, Group 1.

Amy: Okay. So...

Whitney: It looks like this one is four. So Group 4 is the Soloist. So do you feel like your achievements don't count if you had help from a team?

Amy: I said maybe, I got a .5.

Whitney: Is, "I can do it myself," your most common phrase when you're overwhelmed?

Amy: I gave myself a .8 on that, yeah.

Whitney: You are hilarious. It's just supposed to be one tally or no tally.

Amy: That's too hard.

Whitney: Do you feel like a burden when you have to ask for clarification on instructions?

Amy: Sometimes, so I got a 1.8 on that one.

Whitney: Okay, so...

Amy: But the next one I got a very much so, the next grouping, the last grouping, I scored a two.

Whitney: Okay, that's the Superhuman. So let me I'm going to go through all I'm going to go through it one step at a time. So the first grouping with the, "Do you feel like a failure if you get 95% instead of 100%?" That's the Perfectionist, okay? The Perfectionist focus is all about how the work is done, and the flaw with the Perfectionist is that even if 99% of the time you're successful or you give 99% success, if it's not 100, you feel like a failure. If there's one minor detail that's off, you consider yourself a failure. It's all or nothing. You can't have, you know, good enough. And so the mantra for the Perfectionist is, "If I don't do it perfectly, I'm a fraud." Lie, liar, not true, not true.

Amy: Mm-mm.

Whitney: All right, so that was the first one. The second grouping is the Natural Ge- Oh, no, I'm sorry, the the Expert. The Expert was, "Do you shy away from applying for jobs? Are you constantly signed up for new certifications?" The Expert is focused on how much you know. How much do I know? The flaw is feeling like you need to know every single fact before starting, and terrified of being asked a question you can't answer. So, you have to know everything, which is impossible, so of course you're going to feel like a failure. The mantra for the Expert is, "If I don't have all the answers, I'm unqualified." Ooh, that's a tough one.

Amy: Yeah, luckily I didn't even score at all on that.

Whitney: That's great. Yeah, because, you know, and that makes sense because that's why you're able to jump into new things. I Well, I'll tell you what I am in a minute.

Amy: I wish I had certifications, but I don't. I thought one day about...

Whitney: You're certified in life. You've got street certification. Like, my God, each decade you get a new cert. All right, the next grouping, which was the, "Did things come easily to you as a kid and now you feel stupid? Does having a mentor or tutor make you feel like a failure?" That's called the Natural Genius. You feel like you should be a natural at everything. The focus is, how fast and how easily can I succeed? The flaw in that is if you have to work hard or struggle to learn something, you assume you lack the innate talent and shouldn't be there. If it doesn't come easy, I'm in the wrong place.

Amy: That's one of my children.

Whitney: And the mantra is, "If I have to struggle, I'm not actually smart." All of these mantras are lies that we tell ourselves to keep us from moving forward. All right, the next grouping is the Soloist, and that's the one with if you have to ask for help, you're a failure. You want to do it yourself, right? And the mantra for the Soloist is Hold on. I lost Uh, the script is Uh, oh no, wait, hold on. My notes! I'm I'm an impostor. I'm an impostor right now. Where Where's the Soloist? Okay, um the Soloist is...

Amy: There it is.

Whitney: Yeah, but it's missing the focus. But anyway, that's fine.

Amy: Maybe it's on the next page.

Whitney: I don't know.

Amy: There's another page here.

Whitney: No, that's a whole other part of the part of the... Okay, maybe so. No, that's Superhuman. All right, it doesn't matter. The Soloist is the script is asking for Oh wait, no, that's the what you're supposed Am I missing a page?

Amy: Oh, no, it's with your notes somewhere.

Whitney: Oh, man.

Amy: You know what? This is

Whitney: This is so sad.

Amy: so appropriate.

Whitney: It's so appropriate, because I feel like a total failure now. Hold on, I should have numbered these, because I I did take it out of order. The Soloist is uh It doesn't matter.

Amy: What is it? Do you know?

Whitney: Oh, here it is. I'm sorry, I found it.

Amy: Good. Was it right in front of you?

Whitney: Yes, sadly, it was. Papers confuse me like cuz I have ADD, so when I have multiple papers to hold, I get very nervous. And this is why. And it's on record. Anyway, the Soloist, the focus is who did the work, and the flaw is feeling that asking for help is a sign of weakness or proof that you can't handle your responsibilities.

Amy: Oh, okay.

Whitney: And the mantra is, "If I didn't do it all by myself, I can't take credit for it," which is so sad and not true. All right, and then the final one is the Superhuman, which is you, I think you said, Amy. The focus, how many roles you can handle. The flaw, pushing yourself to excel as the best employee, the best parent, the best friend, and partner simultaneously to cover up feelings of inadequacy. And the mantra is, "If I drop even one ball, I'm a failure in every category."

Amy: Yeah, wow. Yeah, I mean that that That is in some different ways, some different ones, too. So, Soloist, Superhuman.

Whitney: It's really sad. I I am also Superhuman, that is also where I feel I have to do everything and I have to do it perfectly, and I have to do it by myself. So I'm a hybrid of all of them, which I think most impostor syndrome people are probably a little bit of a hybrid, but you lean towards one more than the others, and Superhuman is mine as well.

Amy: Me, too. And we're both we're both codependent recovery, so. Like

Whitney: What? No.

Amy: So, I mean if you're codependent at all, have those tendencies to fix,

Whitney: Yes, enabling, if especially if you have addiction in your family, and you're the person that everybody relies on. A lot of impostor syndrome can come from childhood traumas, work-related issues where you're in a high-stress, high-power situation, or toxic relationship, toxic work environment. So, pretty much anywhere.

Amy: Yeah, yeah.

Whitney: But the hybrid is all of the above and you identify with all five, you have global impostorism. "I'm only as good as my last achievement." And I definitely feel like that.

Amy: I had a few years ago, I had to fill something out that was like it was like it pushing you self-worth kind of a thing. And it was like, "List your achievements," and literally I just sat there. I couldn't even think of one. I couldn't think of a single achievement.

Whitney: That is insane.

Amy: And and and I I think it was when we were working together at the Statesman, and I had won like best blogger or something really weird, and which I didn't even have a blog at the time, but I I was like, "Well, I guess I won that," which I didn't even have a blog, but I've considered that an achievement. Anyway, like and I made the shortest list, and I was like, "This is really sad." And that just was a indicator to me that I'm holding myself to some weird standard, and I had to loosen up to consider things wins that really are wins, but that I tend to downgrade because I'm too much of a perfectionist.

Whitney: Right. Exactly, and you yeah, I feel you exactly. As I I do it a lot in my grief area, like this is so sick. This is kind of weird, but like cuz I've always been a positive person, I've always been and I want to inspire people, you know, since my early days when I was teaching middle-schoolers, like I was like, "That's my platform, self-esteem. I want to really build everybody up and, you know, give share with people my thought process on things." But I never felt qualified because even though, I mean, I had a lot of shit going on in my life, you know, addiction running rampant and Rampant, that's right?

Amy: Mhm. Rampant.

Whitney: Exactly. Rampant. Oh, the impostor syndrome is so heavy right now.

Amy: I'm feeling pretty superior.

Whitney: Yes, it was rampant rampant.

Amy: Well, so what happened?

Whitney: My husband died. And then I was like, "Oh, now I'm legit." Isn't that weird? Like after he died, I was like, "Oh, well, now, I mean, now I definitely am not faking anything," you know? Even though addiction and abusive father and all that could have easily been just as legitimizing. And also, I don't have to have something bad happened to me to have some wisdom for people. But your brain is just yeah.

Amy: No, you don't. Yeah, and we've been conditioned to think that you have to earn it in some way, no matter what it is.

Whitney: Yes. Yeah, exactly. So if we can get out of our own heads, which is you and I talk about this all the time, just have over the years. Then you can move forward, who cares if you fail? And so a lot of people right now that are suffering from impostor syndrome that are listening are probably like, "Yeah, but but mine is different. Like, I I really am faking it," you know.

Amy: Right. Yeah, yeah.

Whitney: And the truth is, wherever you are in your life, you are giving things to people that they need. Like you're being put in certain situations to elevate the situation. Does that make sense?

Amy: Yeah, yeah, you are.

Whitney: Exactly where you are right now in your life. You don't need to have any more than what you have right now in this moment, and you're put where you are right now for a reason.

Amy: Yes. And if you can keep believing that, I think that that helps you really find purpose, and get through it, and like, "This is where I'm supposed to be." Like surrendering to that, that's a big one for me.

Whitney: You know, it's something that I think about a lot, and I love when there are babies in my life, which there are a lot of babies in my life right now, or little kids, because my sister and my nephew are having they have little kids. But you see where we started. And it's like you go into a kindergarten classroom, and you say, "Who can dance?" Every single person raises their hand. And you say, "Who can sing?" Every person raises their hand, you know? There is not one person, one soul in there that feels like an impostor. They truly embrace, "I can do that, yes! All right, show us! Show us!" And they get out there and do their moves or sing their song, and it's a it's a it's a radiance coming out of them, and that's that's where we come from, that's how we started.

Amy: I love that example. I love that.

Whitney: And then we start to be aware of how we think other people are perceiving us, and the and the world starts showing us some failure, and we start believing that that's who we are. We all need to get back to those little kindergarteners inside of us that raise their hand and say they're good at everything.

Amy: It's a beginner mindset, too. Those, I mean, those kids, it's maybe a little bit different because they're just like, "I can," you know? Yeah.

Whitney: Yeah, they're they're they're not tainted by anything, they're not self-conscious, they're not. They haven't been taught

Amy: No.

Whitney: to think negatively.

Amy: Uh-uh. And and then there's such power in like the beginner mindset, and that's what I have talked about a lot because I just think that you've got to accept like if you're going to get to doing it and being good at it, you got to start. And so the more you can laugh at being a beginner, the better. And then that's just fine, like then you just accept it in a whole different way. You're like, "Um," and it's it's a beautiful thing. Like when do you see when you see an older person, like a senior citizen, learning the guitar or something, you're like, "Oh, my god, I love that. That's so badass. They're doing that at 75 years old." You know, and like they just jump in and do it, and that's a key to youthfulness. And and not get being so hard on yourself, right? Then that rigidity shows on your face.

Whitney: Right. Right. Right. Well, they do say there is scientific studies that say learning something new does create new pathways in your brain, it creates or gives more elasticity to the brain or something. Like it it or plasticity or what's the word I'm looking for?

Amy: Yeah. Elasticity, yeah.

Whitney: Okay. But is there a plastic Neuroplasticity? Okay, good, I'm not totally crazy.

Amy: Neuroplasticity. Yeah, no, you're right, you're right.

Whitney: Yeah, it makes a difference, but it's the fear of stepping in, the fear of failure, the fear of not being perfect, the fear of not knowing everything. It keeps you from just what's the worst that can happen?

Amy: I know. My Gigi's dad, my ex-husband, he was a US diplomat, and he served in Kenya for a while. And while he was in Kenya, like a civil war almost broke out, this was 2007 or so. And he he got promoted, and then their political counselor for the US, that was serving at the embassy there in Kenya in Nairobi, dropped out or had to go somewhere else, right? So they didn't have a political counselor, so he was like an doing some other job, that was like an assistant political counselor, and then he became the acting political counselor, cuz they didn't have anybody else. So he has to start negotiating peace in Kenya with Kofi Annan and Condoleezza Rice, right?

Whitney: Oh, my god. Oh, my god.

Amy: And he I was like, "How in the ever-living hell did you do that? That would make me like talk about having impostor syndrome," and he was like, "You know what? I just decided that in that moment, I was the best person for the job." And I was like, "Oh, that's a pretty good mindset shift." And so sometimes, I think even if you are thinking, "I'm not qualified," or something, you still are the best person for the job right then. In that moment, and maybe somebody maybe a new political council was going to come in, who knows, right? But he had to do what he had to do in that moment, and just accept like, "Okay, here I am because I'm the best person for this right now." And that's pretty hard. That's a that can be a real stretch if you're in impostor mode, like, "I am not qualified," you know, but but there's something in there.

Whitney: You have to Yes, you have to take the feeling out of it and just focus on the facts. Like if you're in whatever if you're like I have a friend who is, you know, went from government work into the private sector, and it's a very different world, and um and she feels less than, but she has 30 years of experience in her you know, in her government employment that is what they hired her for in this group. But she's now trying to be what everyone else is in the group. That's not why she was hired. You know, she was hired for her expertise, and now she feels like it's a negative, and I'm like, "Hello, are you not?" And so sit down and write like, "You've done this, you did this, this is your credit, you know, this is why you are right for the job, not what you feel." Forget about what you feel, just write down the facts.

Amy: I mean, you have survived this far. That seems like pretty great in itself.

Whitney: Yeah, exactly.

Amy: However old we are, you know. We have like made it to 53 or however old you are. I'm 53.

Whitney: I'm 54.

Amy: That is something, you know. We have decades of like experience.

Whitney: Experience and knowledge and yeah, there's no one should be suffering from impostor syndrome, because everyone is feeling it. Like if you think of it like that,

Amy: Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney: or at least the high-achievers, the ones we care about. They're the ones everyone that you're in that meeting with is probably thinking the same thing.

Amy: That's the thing. That that is really what gets me through is a lot of times everybody else feels the same way, and I just go like pretty much most people are feeling like, "Oh god, what am I What am I doing here? Am I qualified for this?"

Whitney: Yeah, they're not even thinking about you. Just like you're not thinking about them.

Amy: No. They're thinking about themselves, you're right.

Whitney: Yeah, and that's what I was telling my son. I'm like, "When you walk into a room, every other kid in there is you know, mulling over their own inadequacies and they're worrying about their own shit. They're not thinking about you."

Amy: Yeah. No.

Whitney: They're really not. And if they are, cuz he was like, "Well, when I go in and I notice other I notice other people's skin," and I'm like, "That's because that's your thing. You're you're literally projecting onto everybody else what is most worrisome to you."

Amy: Yeah, he's got like VW Bug Syndrome of acne.

Whitney: Ooh, what?

Amy: VW Bug. You know, VW Bug Syndrome, you know, when you see a a a beetle or bug, yeah.

Whitney: I've never heard of that. Oh, and you do the punch bug?

Amy: Yeah, when you would start to see them everywhere, and like...

Whitney: Oh, oh.

Amy: That's just like...

Whitney: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Amy: I don't know if that's actual.

Whitney: All right, well, let let me give you a couple of tips to help you go from fraud to functional.

Amy: Love it.

Whitney: Okay? So for the Perfectionist, the goal is to accept that flawless is not the only definition of success.

Amy: It's a Actually, it's fake, anyway. There is no flawless.

Whitney: There is no Yeah, there's no success.

Amy: There's no success.

Whitney: That, too. I mean, this is the truth, though. What you think is going to make you feel successful, then you get there and you're like, "Meh." It really this is all external stuff, and this is the other thing I was telling my son. You're trying to fix inside stuff by fixing the external stuff, and that is that's why it won't be acne, it'll be something else, and then something else, and then something else, and then something else. You have to go fix internal internally. We're trying to make ourselves feel better on the inside by trying to control everything on the outside. Never going to work.

Amy: When I released my first album, it was an EP, and I had these high hopes. I was like, "Oh, it's just going to be It's going to be a hit. It's going to be on the radio," right?

Whitney: Yeah.

Amy: It was not. I had a nervous breakdown, and I realized that I was defining

Whitney: Your success.

Amy: success on things that were completely beyond my control. And so I had to completely redefine success. And so I made success putting out songs that were honest and true to me, the best I could. And so I completely redefined that, did a whole 'nother album, and I felt so good about it.

Whitney: Yeah, because that's really what it's about.

Amy: It was successful to me. Yes, I liked it.

Whitney: Yes, I love that. I love that.

Amy: Thanks.

Whitney: So the script for the Perfectionist should be, "This is 90% there, and the final 10% isn't worth the burnout.

Amy: It's not. True.

Whitney: I'm choosing to ship this as is because my time is more valuable." The mantra for you Perfectionists is...

Amy: Wait, let me guess. "Done is better than perfect"?

Whitney: How the fuck did you know that?

Amy: Cuz I I live by that.

Whitney: "Done is better than perfect." And you know what? My sweet, sweet other child, Sydney, my Sydney, we both have daughters named Sydney, she was frozen trying to be perfect in college

Amy: Aww.

Whitney: to the point where she wouldn't turn in her work. And then she failed. So her fear of failure because it wasn't perfect actually created her failure. And I'm like, "Hello,

Amy: Caused failure.

Whitney: you're you're frozen worrying like what you feared the most is happening. So just turn it in. Just turn it in." All right,

Amy: Yeah. Wow.

Whitney: all right. Number two, for the Expert, the goal is to realize that competence means knowing how to find the answer, not having it memorized. Okay?

Amy: Competence means...

Whitney: Knowing how to find the answer, not having it memorized.

Amy: I love that.

Whitney: You It's not it's okay to say, "I don't know, let me go find out," you know? So the mantra is, "I'm a learner, not a library."

Amy: Ooh, yeah! That's good.

Whitney: "I'm a learner, not a library."

Amy: I'm a learner, yeah.

Whitney: All right. The Natural Genius, the goal is to reframe struggle as growth rather than stupidity. Okay? Reframe the struggle as growth rather than stupidity.

Amy: Oh, my god, I just saw this clip online the other day, and it was Twiggy, and she was 17, she was 17 years old, and she's being interviewed, this is so gross y'all, by Woody Allen.

Whitney: What? Yeah.

Amy: And...

Whitney: Oh, no. So for people who don't know who Twiggy is, she was a model back in the '70s?

Amy: I guess, '60s, '70s.

Whitney: Yeah, '60s, '70s.

Amy: Real cute. Real cute. And he's like He tries to bring her down a peg, and he goes, "Who's your favorite philosopher?" And she's like wide-eyed, and she's like, "I don't I like I like philosophy. I don't know any philosophers." And he's like, "Oh, you don't know any?" And she's like, "I don't know. I don't know. I don't have one. I don't know who it would be. I don't know one." And then she goes, "Who's yours?" And he freezes. He doesn't have... He didn't know one.

Whitney: He didn't know. Oh, I love it.

Amy: And she innocently is so sweet, and she just accepts that she didn't,

Whitney: Right. And confident.

Amy: she just accepts it. I mean, and plus she's 17. Like fucking okay, of course you don't have a favorite philosopher. And but she turns it back around on him, and he uh he's like, "Oh, I like all of them." And she's like, "But who?" And he's like, "All of them." And she's like... He didn't even bust out like Aristotle or something, you know.

Whitney: Oh, my god. Yeah, he was frozen.

Amy: And he he was like, "Oh, well, I..." and he never answers her. And she was like, "Oh." And it was just so great, because she just reclaimed the power just by accepting that she didn't know, and then she said, "Well, who's yours?" And I've read that actually,

Whitney: This is Yes.

Amy: there's a book uh I'll find the name of it, but she talks about when you're feeling like you don't know or whatever, you turn the spotlight around. And that's really what Twiggy did in that. You feel like the spotlight's on you and you feel exposed in some way, but you simply just turn the spotlight and ask a question right back, and like you can you can shift that, and then there's an acceptance of like, "I I am okay right now. What about this?" you know, and like you're able to reclaim your power in that way, and it was in- interesting.

Whitney: I totally agree with you on the acceptance part, because keeping it a secret makes it harder like that's when the impostor syndrome really starts to step up, when you think that you're keeping it a secret. I remember when I

Amy: There's like shame in there or something.

Whitney: Yes, I when I first started So I was acting in New York, I actually was in a Woody Allen film.

Amy: Oh, I'm so sorry.

Whitney: I know. It was really exhilarating for me, though, because it was...

Amy: God, yes, at the time that was what you wanted. What Which one?

Whitney: Curse of the Jade Scorpion. I was just an extra, but he only would have like 25 extras for the whole movie and it was a period piece, and so it was really cool. But anyway,

Amy: I haven't seen that and I never will. No, I'm sorry.

Whitney: Yeah. Anyway, Helen Hunt was in it, and Dan Aykroyd. But anyway,

Amy: What? Wow.

Whitney: but so I digress. I I was an actor, but I wanted to have a baby and a house, and so my husband was like, "Well, then you're going to need to get a real job and help me pay for it." And so I was like, "Okay." So I was temping at this hedge fund, and I just went in and I was like, "I'm going to have to get a real job, so if you all want to hire me, great." And they hired me. I didn't say it like that, but I was like, "I got to find a job." I was like, "I got to find a job."

Amy: I like that though, that would be awesome though. "If you want to hire me, great. I need a job."

Whitney: Yeah. And so they hired me, but on my first official day, and I'd been temping there, but it was really like filing and stuff, it wasn't anything big. And I was just like, you know, walking around, chatting with people, because I was human resources. Anyway, they asked me to do something on PowerPoint, and I had never done PowerPoint, and this was back in, you know, like 2000, 2001 or something. I'd never done PowerPoint, I'd been in acting, I hadn't done any kind of office work at all, and I just said, "Okay." And then I ran into an office, and I started calling my husband at his work, and I was crying, and I was like, "They want me to do PowerPoint, and I don't know PowerPoint." He was like, "Just go tell them you don't know how to do PowerPoint." And I'm like, "I can't, I can't, I already said I was going to do it." And he was like, "It's okay. It's okay if you don't know, they know that they've hired you

Amy: Mhm. But then you feel like then you feel like you lied or something, you know?

Whitney: and you were an actor." Yes, but just but hiding in an office for several hours and not doing the PowerPoint, and bothering your husband at work, you know, was even worse.

Amy: What happened?

Whitney: I had to go in and I was so mad at myself, because, you know, I think especially as women, tears come not because we're sad, it's like anger, it's just emotion. And but men will look at it as a weakness or something, but I was so mad at myself for just all the feelings, and so I went in to tell them that I couldn't I didn't know how to do PowerPoint, and tears started falling out of my eyes, and I'm like, "Damn it!" But I got through it, I worked there for a couple years, had a couple babies. Yeah, it was good. All right, back to the takeaways.

Amy: Did you learn to did you learn to do PowerPoint?

Whitney: I did not. They took me off the PowerPoint project, and I became the new hire person, so I would take their photos and give them their benefit packages. It was way better.

Amy: Much better for you. Much better.

Whitney: Oh, yeah. I was the face of HR, not the PowerPoint. All right, so we did the Perfectionist, we did the Expert, and we did Natural Genius. We're onto the Soloist. The goal is to see collaboration as a skill, not a weakness. Yeah. It's okay, you want to work with people. The script is asking for input as a smart use of resources. The mantra is, "Interdependence is higher level than independence." You're actually smarter when you bring in other people than when you try to do it all on your own. All right, and you, Amy, and me, for the last one, the Superhuman, the goal is to detach self-worth from the length of a to-do list. When you finish a project Oh wait, no. Dadgummit, these stupid notes.

Amy: Oh no, it's the pages again, guys.

Whitney: To detach your self-worth from the length of a to-do list. The script is, "I'm allowed to have an off day. My value as a person is not a transaction based on how much I produced today." And by the way, you can't be good at everything. There's only 100% of you to go around, you can't give 100% to each ball.

Amy: I've gotten a lot better about this. I'm just I love the sense of completion of a to-do list, I love checking things off.

Whitney: Yeah. It's hard. You know what I do?

Amy: What?

Whitney: I I don't write many to-do lists anymore, but when I would, I would sometimes put something that I'd already done just so I could cross it off.

Amy: Oh, yeah. Mhm. Million percent. I'm 100% on that.

Whitney: Cuz it feels good, and then you're like, "All right, I've done something."

Amy: Yeah. Now I do it on my phone, you know, with my Notes app, and then it has a little circle you can check. Oh, I love that.

Whitney: Oh, you do, that's hilarious.

Amy: Yeah. And I'll check that, but then usually actually I'll just delete it, and I watch it get shorter and shorter and shorter, and I feel so good. Oh, I just did it today, like four times.

Whitney: Well, your mantra is, "I'm a human being, not a human doing."

Amy: That's true, and and it's a work in progress for me. I I recognize that I like it, and I do like the sense of completion, because I do believe that we live in a world without a lot of completion a lot of times, you know?

Whitney: That's very true.

Amy: I've always enjoyed cleaning things because I like the sense of completion, and I accept that about myself. And so, you know, it's it's just like finding that balance, and not letting that rule my world.

Whitney: Right. And by the way, also watch yourself, because you can start to berate yourself for having impostor syndrome.

Amy: Right, right.

Whitney: It's okay. We're all trying to do the best we can,

Amy: Yeah, and I don't I don't let my to-do list I think I used to do this to where I felt like a failure if I didn't complete it all, or I just yeah, I felt like I had lied to myself. I I felt like, "Oh, I said I was going to do this and I didn't," and so there was like that.

Whitney: Unrest. Yeah. Oh. You didn't follow through.

Amy: Like that's not even about like a failure, it's just about letting yourself down or something, or I lied to myself. And I don't do that anymore. I'm like, "Ah, I didn't get to it today," and then I move it to tomorrow's list, which is a little bit below, and then I start a new checklist and I'm like, "I can do that tomorrow," and so no, I'm I'm okay with it, but...

Whitney: Yeah. I think you hit it on the head with not letting people down. I think that is really at the core of the impostor syndrome. You don't want to let anyone down, and and all of these things are the way that you think that you're letting them down.

Amy: But really, you're actually giving people permission to be more of themselves when you admit like, "Oh, you know what? I don't know," and they're like, "I don't know, either." And then you go like, "Let's ChatGPT it," or whatever, and so...

Whitney: Yeah. Or GBT it, GBT it, as you say.

Amy: GBT, as you say.

Whitney: That's so weird. Or we probably won't even edit out all these page problems that I've been having so that you can see.

Amy: It's a great idea.

Whitney: I'm

Amy: It's a great idea.

Whitney: I'm I'm not perfect, and we're doing the best we can. So here's your call to action: you can write your mantra on a sticky note, we're going to put them in the in the show notes for each archetype. You can write that on a sticky note as a reminder. You use facts instead of emotion. When you find yourself sitting in that impostor syndrome, sit down and write down facts, not your feelings. Not, "I feel like a failure." Write down, "I completed this task," or, "I went to high school," or, "I did this," or, "I did," you know, write down facts, not the emotion, because the emotion is what's lying to you. That's really what your your brain is using to make you think all of these things.

Amy: Yeah, I mean like I've had to do it with being a mom, and just brainwash myself that like, "I'm a good mom." And you know, just the fact that I kept my children alive, I really consider that a win.

Whitney: Exactly. Exactly, and I think a lot of times for solo parents, either, you know, widow, widowers or divorced parents where you really are kind of the only parent. Now I know there are a lot of divorce situations where both sides are together and working together, but there's also, you know, some some issues with that, and and you feel like you're the only one, and you're not going to be perfect. Nobody's perfect. You just have to do the best that we can with what we've been given. All right, and the last thing, and this is something that Dr. Valerie Young said, confidence is actually overrated, and that whole kind of, you know,

Amy: Sure, for sure. Mhm. Mhm. I like this.

Whitney: you have to Just like what you said earlier, you have to start, right? Or like I remember in creative writing class, they're like, "Just write. Don't worry about what you're saying, or punctuation, or anything. Get rid of the blank page, because the blank page is what's freezing you, right?" So don't wait for confidence before you start. You don't need to feel ready to start. You start, and then you start to feel ready.

Amy: Yeah. Ah, it's so true. It's so true.

Whitney: So you just have to be brave enough to to just jump in.

Amy: Yeah, Justin is starting a new YouTube channel, and I was like He started to get ahead of himself, and just be like, "Well, I'll need this, and this certain gear, and this," and I was like, "Oh, my god. You have a good phone. Just film."

Whitney: Aw. Just start, yes.

Amy: I was like, "Don't start getting too wrapped up in all these things." Like people who want to start a podcast, I tell them that. They'll like, "What do I do?" And I'm like they'll they'll get way ahead of themselves, like, "I'm paying for editing," you know, and I'm like, "Oh, my god, do you have anything recorded?" You know, and like I had a woman say that wants to meet about writing a book, and she was like asking me some questions, and she was like, "Well, who'd you use for publishing?" And I said, "Do you literally even have an outline?"

Whitney: Just start. I don't have this, I don't know that. Yeah. An a direction?

Amy: Like I was like, "Don't You're cart before the horsing this all day long." And so that's that's part of like we can get ahead of ourselves, and just make it way too big when it's really just about the blank page. Like just take that away.

Whitney: Yeah. Just start writing, start moving forward. Don't The confidence is overrated, that's that so many people wait they, "I need to feel ready before I do something." No.

Amy: Yeah. Right. Right.

Whitney: The movement of moving forward starts to make you feel ready.

Amy: Yes, I have a book that's one of my favorites that I always recommend, and it's called The War of Art. Have you read it? Steven Pressfield.

Whitney: Oh, yeah. I I ha- I bought it, I don't think I ever read it.

Amy: It's an easy read. It's like I mean a chapter's like a page.

Whitney: But isn't it a like a workbook, too, or something?

Amy: I think there might be a workbook, but no.

Whitney: Yeah, I got that one year, and then I didn't...

Amy: It's it's excellent, it's excellent. If you're but it's it's just what you're talking about, it's about not waiting to be ready, and he's basically like, "You don't wait for inspiration to strike, just show up at 10:00 a.m. every day and start doing the stuff, and then and then you make an appointment with inspiration basically, and you show up, you do it every day, some days it's good, some days it sucks. Doesn't matter, you're still there." And I'm like that yeah, that's that's what you have to do, and that's the only way you're going to gain ground, cuz I was like, "I want to be the number one podcast in the world, and if I never actually make a podcast, it's never going to happen."

Whitney: Yeah. Show up. Well, that's the thing. Yeah, I mean I want to write a book, and then forever I was like, "But I don't know what I'd write about," and then and then you get all in your head about that, and then you never actually start. So all of you that are out there feeling like an impostor, you just need to try to take these mantras that we're going to put in our show notes, stick them around your house, tell yourself every day, cuz your thoughts are really what are driving you, and if you can get control of your thoughts, then that impostor syndrome is going to disappear, just like I was telling my son. You're already 100%, your thoughts about your problem are keeping you from feeling it, but you're already 100%.

Amy: I love this. I love this. I've been having it a little bit, too. It presents in some different ways for me. I've been having it a little bit with social media, cuz I've been trying to build that up and really understand my brand and direction with it, and and have it align with this show and my show, and like but I still get caught up like am I as good as these other people, you know, whatever. But you're just going to have some that don't have any views, you're just going to have some fails. But you got to keep putting it out there, we're never going to get to Diary of a CEO level, or you know, Mel Robbins or whoever, Cat & Nat, I like her.

Whitney: Mhm. Mhm. Right.

Amy: You know, I am Cat & Nat, she's real cute. And I'm like but if I don't put anything out, I'm never going to get there.

Whitney: Right. Consistency is is more important than confidence, honestly.

Amy: It's almost like paying your dues. A million times over. A million times over. In fact, I'm we're going to record one and I'm going to talk about consistency, too, so.

Whitney: Yeah. Oh, right, well, perfect timing.

Amy: Yeah. So anyway, we all go through this, it's perfectly normal, and like it's just about how you're going to deal with it.

Whitney: Yeah,

Amy: and getting better at that.

Whitney: Your thoughts are what are creating your reality, so if you can that and that's the only thing we have control over a lot of the time. Those external things, me, you know, not knowing PowerPoint, I mean, okay, I could have learned PowerPoint, but my thought about me not knowing PowerPoint was keeping me hidden in that room crying.

Amy: But it sure worked out for the best, because you ended up in a position that was way better suited than creating PowerPoint.

Whitney: Oh, my gosh, it was the best. I I was the HR department, like the face of it, where I'm supposed to be like keeping people from, you know, flirting and stuff, and I was out there like, "Hey!"

Amy: Oh, I'm sure you were like, "20s in New York, and you're like partying, Sex and the City era."

Whitney: It was so fun in your 30s. Oh, my god, it was so fun.

Amy: Oh, my gosh. Well, thank you for sharing all of that, that's really cool. This was a really good one.

Whitney: Yes. Yeah, thanks, Beth. Beth.

Amy: If you're listening, you're like, "Wait, do I have one that's good enough?" You do!

Whitney: You do.

Amy: You have a suggestion that's good enough. Don't let anything get in your way. Email us right now while you're thinking about it.

Whitney: That's right. You guys got this. You're You are already 100%, so get out there and start moving. Consistently.

Amy: Consistently. Email us, follow the show, share it with your friends, talk about it, all those things.

Whitney: Yeah, follow us on Instagram, and if you want to watch the video, we're we're up on YouTube. If you want to actually watch me lose my place in my papers

Amy: And drink our hydrogen water.

Whitney: and drink you can do that uh on YouTube.

Amy: You sure can. Thank you so much, and you know, ultimately,

Whitney: Thanks, guys.

Amy: we do what we want.

Whitney: Yes, we do.

Amy: We do what we want.

Whitney: We do what we want.